Posted: October 22 2008 at 17:53 | IP Logged

Pete:

A couple of weeks ago there was a big discussion about engine room lighting and one member asked about using LED lighting.  You may or may not know this but we do high end architectural lighting around the world and have designed and specified a lot of LED lighting in the past couple of years.  We have done this for 4 main reasons 1. life of the lamps (40 to 50 plus thousand hours of life), 2. low power consumption for the light out put, 3. low heat per watt of output and 4. the ability to color the light as apposed to using a secondary color media.  All good things especially in places like Kuwait and Doha where the quality of labor to change lamps is hard to find and where they don't need heat to add to the HVAC load.  But, it even makes a difference in projects like the Kansas City Convention Center we just completed to establish a LEED Award.

I didn't respond when the discussion was going on because I was traveling and wanted to get the input from several of my staff who have gotten more into the little details of LED's (currently and at the leading edge it is changing every day).  we round tabled  the issue here yesterday and I was interested to note that the two staff that are "trailer sailors" (small boat rag baggers) have been round tabling the same issue for their group.

So here is the benefit of our collective experience - some fittings to look at - and the downsides:

Three of main reasons we have use a lot of LED stand!  Life, power consumption, and heat.  But there are other things such as the fact that these lamps don't care about vibration (most other types do - some more that others!) and they are impervious to moisture and things like salt - but remember the wire and contacts still care about vibration, water and salt.

And, best of all they are 12 or 24 volt naturally!

Are there down sides?  Yes!  Most of the people who make LED lamps rate them for operating air temperatures below 120 degrees.  For the Middle East outside use we have wanted ratings to 160 degrees - and have yet to get the manufacturers to tell us we can go there.  By the way it is the power supply not the LED itself that hates the heat.  So consider this if the fittings are to be placed close to and directly above big twin engines which have been operating for a long period of time.  The engine room in my 500 never got above 120 degrees overall - but you can burn yourself if you touch the engine itself!  So using them as running illumination for say a camera view the engines at the bridge might be a problem unless you place them very carefully away from the heat sources (engine and the exhaust).

One other thing to consider is color of the lamps.  White is very blue by any standard – even normal fluorescent.  You can go to warm white which looks more like incandescent – but for the moment you lose some of the lamp life and they are much more expensive.  You’re probably saying – “But you said you use them for color control! – and we do!  But we use 3 color clusters of 4 LED’s with 2 blue, one magenta / red, and one amber and together we can mix any color by controlling the output of each color LED.  I don’t think anyone of you would want to pay for a dimmer control module for engine room color control.

All of this is changing – and we see new options in our office every two weeks (long before you will see them in the consumer market.  And they only get better and better.

Should you consider LED?  I would – but remember this technology is being driven by the fact that incandescent lamps will not be manufactured after December 30, 2009.  So the race is on to give consumer’s good environmentally friendly (GREEN) alternatives and to do so with out replacing your existing light fixtures.  SO!  Waiting and watching might give you even better LED options than the ones for which I have put the links to that you might consider now!  

http:// www.nichia.com/

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=ledinterior

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=ledinterior&i=001

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=lednav&i=004  For navigation lights

Van Phillips

Posted: October 25 2008 at 06:27 | IP Logged

Our mission is to provide high quality end to end solutions to the BPO segment in a manner that will improve the operational efficiency while reducing the cost of the services to the client.

4thdimension1@gmail.com

Posted: October 25 2008 at 09:27 | IP Logged

Pete and Brian:

A couple of weeks ago there was a big discussion about engine room lighting and one member asked about using LED lighting.  You may or may not know this but we do high end architectural lighting around the world and have designed and specified a lot of LED lighting in the past couple of years.  We have done this for 4 main reasons 1. life of the lamps (40 to 50 plus thousand hours of life), 2. low power consumption for the light out put, 3. low heat per watt of output and 4. the ability to color the light as apposed to using a secondary color media.  All good things especially in places like Kuwait and Doha, Qatar where the quality of labor to change lamps is hard to find and where they don't need heat to add to the HVAC load.  But, it even makes a difference in projects like the Kansas City Convention Center we just completed to establish a LEED Award.

I didn't respond when the discussion was going on because I was traveling and wanted to get the input from several of my staff who have gotten more into the little details of LED's (currently and at the leading edge it is changing every day).  we round tabled  the issue here yesterday and I was interested to note that the two staff that are "trailer sailors" (small boat rag baggers) have been round tabling the same issue for their group.

So here is the benefit of our collective experience - some fittings to look at - and the downsides:

Three of main reasons we have use a lot of LED stand!  Life, power consumption, and heat.  But there are other things such as the fact that these lamps don't care about vibration (most other types do - some more that others!) and they are impervious to moisture and things like salt - but remember the wire and contacts still care about vibration, water and salt.

And, best of all they are 12 or 24 volt naturally!

Are there down sides?  Yes!  Most of the people who make LED lamps rate them for operating air temperatures below 120 degrees.  For the Middle East outside use we have wanted ratings to 160 degrees - and have yet to get the manufacturers to tell us we can go there.  By the way it is the power supply not the LED itself that hates the heat.  So consider this if the fittings are to be placed close to and directly above big twin engines which have been operating for a long period of time.  The engine room in my 500 never got above 120 degrees overall - but you can burn yourself if you touch the engine itself!  So using them as running illumination for say a camera view the engines at the bridge might be a problem unless you place them very carefully away from the heat sources (engine and the exhaust).

One other thing to consider is color of the lamps.  White is very blue by any standard – even normal fluorescent.  You can go to warm white which looks more like incandescent – but for the moment you lose some of the lamp life and they are much more expensive.  You’re probably saying – “But you said you use them for color control! – and we do!  But we use 3 color clusters of 4 LED’s with 2 blue, one magenta / red, and one amber and together we can mix any color by controlling the output of each color LED.  I don’t think anyone of you would want to pay for a dimmer control module for engine room color control.

All of this is changing – and we see new options in our office every two weeks (long before you will see them in the consumer market.  And they only get better and better.

Should you consider LED?  I would – but remember this technology is being driven by the fact that incandescent lamps will not be manufactured after December 30, 2009.  So the race is on to give consumer’s good environmentally friendly (GREEN) alternatives and to do so with out replacing your existing light fixtures.  SO!  Waiting and watching might give you even better LED options than the ones for which I have put the links to that you might consider now!  

http:// www.nichia.com/

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=ledinterior

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=ledinterior&i=001

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=lednav&i=004  For navigation lights

Van Phillips

Posted: October 28 2008 at 16:53 | IP Logged

Hi Van,

The discussion you refer to was on the Chris Craft Constellation 500 forum. One of the Connie owners suggested that we should consider using LEDs rather than fluorescent lighting.  I did some numbers but using data on the LED sources I could find at the local hardware store the LED sources did not produce anywhere near as many lumens per dollar.

The job we were talking about was lighting the engine room and bilges of our Connies.  This is a task that consumes only several tens of hours per year and the power consumed is less than 200 watts so the total energy consumed is less than 10 kilowatt hours per year.  At 10 cents per KWH this only about $1.00.  It obviously is not a matter of any great concern. 

At the present time I am using incandescent lightbulbs which are only 20% as efficient as fluorescents.  Therefore it might cost me $5.00 per year to operate my bilge lights.  It still is obviously not a matter of any great concern. 

Your criteria for justifying LEDS (lifetime, power consumption, low output heat and ability to change color) may make make sense for some high usage systems.  But for the mundane task of illuminating the bilge the costs of installation and maintenance are the major factors of concern.

Because I have had heart problems in the past,  I have a thermometer mounted at the entrance to my engine room.  I make it a practice never to enter the engine room at temperatures above 110 degrees and know from constant observation that the temperature frequently is above 120 degrees after long runs.  The engines themselves run at 170 to 190 degrees and touching their surface will burn your skin.  If your LEDs will only stand 120 degrees you will have major problems using them for bilge lights.

I have no problem accepting new technology.  If someone can produce a better mousetrap I will buy it.  But only if it's at a reasonable price.  If you tell me it's going to cost $100 to light my bilges I'm not interested because that's more than I would ever spend in my lifetime using incandescent light bulbs.

The bill you speak of does not start until the year 2012 and won't include all incandescents until 2020.  Incandescents must be replaced with other types of bulbs eventually but there is no surety that the replacements will be LEDs.  That wiil depend on the relative costs for fluorescents, LEDs and other types of bulbs.

Pete37

Posted: October 28 2008 at 21:57 | IP Logged

Hi Van,

I did a search on the web and read nearly every article on the new incandescent light ban that I could find.  Most of the reader's comments were uncomplementary.  Some were downright unprintable.

First, the plan is to convert all incandescents to CFLs (Compact Fluorescent Lamps?).  LEDs are hardly mentioned, but seem to be acceptable to the law on the basis of efficiency.  The problem with LEDs (at the moment) is that they are much more expensive than CFLs and incandescents.

At first the CFLs seem like a great idea.  They last a long time and only use about 20% of the energy of an incandescent.  But then the problems appear:

1.  Current CFLs won't fit a lot of existing lamp fixtures.

2. CFLs aren't compatible with existing dimmer switches and timers.

3. Turning CFLs on and off frequently shortens their life.

4. CFLs take several minutes to reach full illumination.

5. The new CFLs contain toxic mercury.  Wait until the housewives of America      learn that the CFLs are going to poison their children.  Instructions for CFLs say that if broken you should vacate the room.  How long?  They don't say.

6. There is no way to get three way lighting out of a CFL.  If you have a CFL on your TV room side table you want full brightness for reading, medium brightness for entertaining and low brightness for watching TV.  But the CFL can't do that.

7.  CFLs are temperature sensitive and simply won't work properly outdoors.  In some climates they won't even start in the winter.

8. CFLs are supposed to be disposed of at an approved disposal facility.  If that's several miles away how many people do you think will bother?  All that toxic mercury is going to wind up at your local dump.

9.  Many people complain that reading under a CFL causes severe eye strain.

10. The cost to retrofit a typical house with more than 100 incandescent bulbs of all sizes and types mounted in many different types of fixtures could be in the thousands of dollars (exclusive of the cost of the bulbs).

11. I'm waiting to see what my first string of CFL Christmas Tree lights will look like and cost.

Obviously many of these problems could be avoided with LEDs.  But LEDs have their own set of problems. 

This is a well intentioned bill and the reduction in energy consumption is laudable.  But I think that a lot of modifications are going to have to be made before it's practical.

In the meantime, I'm not going to worry about changing the lights in the bilge of my boat.  When suitable bulbs are available I will replace my incandescent lamps.  In the meantime, I like you, will make do with the old fashioned but dependable kerosene lantern.  The efficiency of kerosene lanterns does not have to be improved to comply with the new law.

Pete37

Posted: October 29 2008 at 17:06 | IP Logged

Hi Van,

I guess I'm just getting old and not keeping up with technology.  I bought some CFLs a couple years ago and put them in the garage.  But they take quite a while to get up to full brightness and by the time they did I had long since left the garage.  Took them down and replaced them with incandescents.  They're sitting in a drawer in the workbench.  I'll find a use for them someday.

I don't know why they are so unpleasant to read by.  There must be some solid physical reason.  It's not just me because an awful lot of people complain they're no good for reading.  But no one reads any more anyway.

While Home Depot carries some LED lights, I don't think our local hardware store even carries them.  They're expensive and the demand just hasn't developed yet. 

I did some quick calculations and it costs about $12 to run a 100 watt bulb for it's lifetime of 1125 hours.  I'm typically using a reading lamp about 6 hours a day for one reason or another so in a year I run 2190 hours which is just a little under two bulbs worth. 

That means my yearly reading light bill is about $25 which doesn't scare me particulary.  With 50,000 hours of lifetime I won't be able to use up an LED reading light in my lifetime.  Can I get a refund (posthumously) on the unused LED lifetime?  Or maybe I could buy a bulb with only a 20,000 hour lifetime.

When we travel, my wife and I always pack a couple of 100 watt bulbs in our luggage to use for reading.  It's not because the motels are all using CFLs but because many of them are using 25 watt bulbs.

Pete37