] ]

 
] ] ]
]
Welcome Guest ]
]
] ]

] ] ]
]
Site Navigation ]
]
] ]

] ] ]
]
Top 10 Recent Posts ]
View Last Post Murray Chris Craft Constellations
Pages 1 2 3 4 ... 149 » 150
Last Post By: Capt Jim
Forum: Chris Craft

Posted: August 29 2014 at: 11:06

View Last Post 1991 Four Winns 365
Last Post By: Blue Moon 138
Forum: Four Winns

Posted: July 16 2014 at: 17:35

View Last Post Seat Cushions
Last Post By: Michael Acord
Forum: Sea Fox

Posted: June 06 2014 at: 16:02

View Last Post Sail cleanin’ and hull patchin’
Last Post By: dad21dawg
Forum: Hunter

Posted: May 29 2014 at: 16:01

View Last Post 1983 25’ Chris Craft Catalina
Last Post By: fred6963
Forum: Chris Craft

Posted: May 27 2014 at: 14:26

View Last Post 1963 Constellation 42
Last Post By: spellbound
Forum: Chris Craft

Posted: May 06 2014 at: 08:31

View Last Post Viking Yachts Links
Last Post By: Viking44
Forum: Viking Yacht

Posted: April 17 2014 at: 06:32

View Last Post Amerosport 320
Last Post By: Jerry737
Forum: Chris Craft

Posted: April 13 2014 at: 16:00

View Last Post Any Uniflite Owners near Berkeley CA???
Last Post By: concordian
Forum: Uniflite

Posted: March 08 2014 at: 02:27

View Last Post Inverter
Last Post By: eshover
Forum: Chris Craft

Posted: February 03 2014 at: 11:32

]
] ]
   
Chris Craft
 BoatUS Boat Groups/Manufacturer Forums>>Chris Craft
Subject Topic: Engine Room - LED Lighting Post ReplyPost New Topic
 
] ] ]
]
Author
Message Prev Topic | Next Topic 
vanphill
"Seaman Recruit"




Joined: December 05 2006
Posts: 14
Posted: October 22 2008 at 17:53 | IP Logged Quote vanphill

Pete:

A couple of weeks ago there was a big discussion about engine room lighting and one member asked about using LED lighting.  You may or may not know this but we do high end architectural lighting around the world and have designed and specified a lot of LED lighting in the past couple of years.  We have done this for 4 main reasons 1. life of the lamps (40 to 50 plus thousand hours of life), 2. low power consumption for the light out put, 3. low heat per watt of output and 4. the ability to color the light as apposed to using a secondary color media.  All good things especially in places like Kuwait and Doha where the quality of labor to change lamps is hard to find and where they don't need heat to add to the HVAC load.  But, it even makes a difference in projects like the Kansas City Convention Center we just completed to establish a LEED Award.

I didn't respond when the discussion was going on because I was traveling and wanted to get the input from several of my staff who have gotten more into the little details of LED's (currently and at the leading edge it is changing every day).  we round tabled  the issue here yesterday and I was interested to note that the two staff that are "trailer sailors" (small boat rag baggers) have been round tabling the same issue for their group.

So here is the benefit of our collective experience - some fittings to look at - and the downsides:

Three of main reasons we have use a lot of LED stand!  Life, power consumption, and heat.  But there are other things such as the fact that these lamps don't care about vibration (most other types do - some more that others!) and they are impervious to moisture and things like salt - but remember the wire and contacts still care about vibration, water and salt.

And, best of all they are 12 or 24 volt naturally!

Are there down sides?  Yes!  Most of the people who make LED lamps rate them for operating air temperatures below 120 degrees.  For the Middle East outside use we have wanted ratings to 160 degrees - and have yet to get the manufacturers to tell us we can go there.  By the way it is the power supply not the LED itself that hates the heat.  So consider this if the fittings are to be placed close to and directly above big twin engines which have been operating for a long period of time.  The engine room in my 500 never got above 120 degrees overall - but you can burn yourself if you touch the engine itself!  So using them as running illumination for say a camera view the engines at the bridge might be a problem unless you place them very carefully away from the heat sources (engine and the exhaust).


One other thing to consider is color of the lamps.  White is very blue by any standard – even normal fluorescent.  You can go to warm white which looks more like incandescent – but for the moment you lose some of the lamp life and they are much more expensive.  You’re probably saying – “But you said you use them for color control! – and we do!  But we use 3 color clusters of 4 LED’s with 2 blue, one magenta / red, and one amber and together we can mix any color by controlling the output of each color LED.  I don’t think anyone of you would want to pay for a dimmer control module for engine room color control.

All of this is changing – and we see new options in our office every two weeks (long before you will see them in the consumer market.  And they only get better and better.

Should you consider LED?  I would – but remember this technology is being driven by the fact that incandescent lamps will not be manufactured after December 30, 2009.  So the race is on to give consumer’s good environmentally friendly (GREEN) alternatives and to do so with out replacing your existing light fixtures.  SO!  Waiting and watching might give you even better LED options than the ones for which I have put the links to that you might consider now!  

http:// www.nichia.com/

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=ledinterior

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=ledinterior&i=001

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=lednav&i=004  For navigation lights


Van Phillips

If you are interested I can give you all some more technical information!
 


__________________
Ark Angel - The fresh water Constellation 500
Lafayette, Indiana

Slipped in St Joseph, Michigan
Back to Top Printable version View vanphill's Profile Search for other posts by vanphill
 
Brian2008
"Seaman Recruit"




Joined: October 22 2008
Posts: 10
Posted: October 25 2008 at 06:27 | IP Logged Quote Brian2008

Engine Room - LED Lighting -Clusters for reading, engine room lighting, as courtesy lights below or marker lights for stairs, entryways and safety equipment.
=====================
Brian

Our mission is to provide high quality end to end solutions to the BPO segment in a manner that will improve the operational efficiency while reducing the cost of the services to the client.

4thdimension1@gmail.com



Back to Top Printable version View Brian2008's Profile Search for other posts by Brian2008
 
vanphill
"Seaman Recruit"




Joined: December 05 2006
Posts: 14
Posted: October 25 2008 at 09:27 | IP Logged Quote vanphill

Pete and Brian:

A couple of weeks ago there was a big discussion about engine room lighting and one member asked about using LED lighting.  You may or may not know this but we do high end architectural lighting around the world and have designed and specified a lot of LED lighting in the past couple of years.  We have done this for 4 main reasons 1. life of the lamps (40 to 50 plus thousand hours of life), 2. low power consumption for the light out put, 3. low heat per watt of output and 4. the ability to color the light as apposed to using a secondary color media.  All good things especially in places like Kuwait and Doha, Qatar where the quality of labor to change lamps is hard to find and where they don't need heat to add to the HVAC load.  But, it even makes a difference in projects like the Kansas City Convention Center we just completed to establish a LEED Award.

I didn't respond when the discussion was going on because I was traveling and wanted to get the input from several of my staff who have gotten more into the little details of LED's (currently and at the leading edge it is changing every day).  we round tabled  the issue here yesterday and I was interested to note that the two staff that are "trailer sailors" (small boat rag baggers) have been round tabling the same issue for their group.

So here is the benefit of our collective experience - some fittings to look at - and the downsides:

Three of main reasons we have use a lot of LED stand!  Life, power consumption, and heat.  But there are other things such as the fact that these lamps don't care about vibration (most other types do - some more that others!) and they are impervious to moisture and things like salt - but remember the wire and contacts still care about vibration, water and salt.

And, best of all they are 12 or 24 volt naturally!

Are there down sides?  Yes!  Most of the people who make LED lamps rate them for operating air temperatures below 120 degrees.  For the Middle East outside use we have wanted ratings to 160 degrees - and have yet to get the manufacturers to tell us we can go there.  By the way it is the power supply not the LED itself that hates the heat.  So consider this if the fittings are to be placed close to and directly above big twin engines which have been operating for a long period of time.  The engine room in my 500 never got above 120 degrees overall - but you can burn yourself if you touch the engine itself!  So using them as running illumination for say a camera view the engines at the bridge might be a problem unless you place them very carefully away from the heat sources (engine and the exhaust).


One other thing to consider is color of the lamps.  White is very blue by any standard – even normal fluorescent.  You can go to warm white which looks more like incandescent – but for the moment you lose some of the lamp life and they are much more expensive.  You’re probably saying – “But you said you use them for color control! – and we do!  But we use 3 color clusters of 4 LED’s with 2 blue, one magenta / red, and one amber and together we can mix any color by controlling the output of each color LED.  I don’t think anyone of you would want to pay for a dimmer control module for engine room color control.

All of this is changing – and we see new options in our office every two weeks (long before you will see them in the consumer market.  And they only get better and better.

Should you consider LED?  I would – but remember this technology is being driven by the fact that incandescent lamps will not be manufactured after December 30, 2009.  So the race is on to give consumer’s good environmentally friendly (GREEN) alternatives and to do so with out replacing your existing light fixtures.  SO!  Waiting and watching might give you even better LED options than the ones for which I have put the links to that you might consider now!  

http:// www.nichia.com/

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=ledinterior

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=ledinterior&i=001

http://www.fourwinds-ii.com/v2/?c=lednav&i=004  For navigation lights

 

Van Phillips



__________________
Ark Angel - The fresh water Constellation 500
Lafayette, Indiana

Slipped in St Joseph, Michigan
Back to Top Printable version View vanphill's Profile Search for other posts by vanphill
 
boatman66
"Commander"




Joined: August 19 2007
Posts: 1132
Posted: October 25 2008 at 10:09 | IP Logged Quote boatman66

this is a forum for discussing boats not sales please refrain

__________________
1986 294 catalina twin 350's
Back to Top Printable version View boatman66's Profile Search for other posts by boatman66
 
vanphill
"Seaman Recruit"




Joined: December 05 2006
Posts: 14
Posted: October 25 2008 at 16:44 | IP Logged Quote vanphill

Read the post!  Is is talking about Chris Craft Connie 500s!  And is trying to give you information about questions raised on the use of LED lighting for the engine room!

The Connie 500 I own has been the reason I stay part of this group - and get to read the the universally interesting messages about who is which slip!

DA!

Van


__________________
Ark Angel - The fresh water Constellation 500
Lafayette, Indiana

Slipped in St Joseph, Michigan
Back to Top Printable version View vanphill's Profile Search for other posts by vanphill
 
boatman66
"Commander"




Joined: August 19 2007
Posts: 1132
Posted: October 27 2008 at 10:04 | IP Logged Quote boatman66

talkin not about you van,but brian.

__________________
1986 294 catalina twin 350's
Back to Top Printable version View boatman66's Profile Search for other posts by boatman66
 
boatman66
"Commander"




Joined: August 19 2007
Posts: 1132
Posted: October 28 2008 at 09:41 | IP Logged Quote boatman66

Van I agree about LED's and am excited about their future!! Especially when it comes to boating,I would really like to see the LED market explode and make all kinds of really neat applications for boats,such as color changing lamps that you can program for different colors  and moods for interior as well as exterior and underwater applications. Keep up the good work. BOATMAN66

__________________
1986 294 catalina twin 350's
Back to Top Printable version View boatman66's Profile Search for other posts by boatman66
 
Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: October 28 2008 at 16:53 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Van,

The discussion you refer to was on the Chris Craft Constellation 500 forum. One of the Connie owners suggested that we should consider using LEDs rather than fluorescent lighting.  I did some numbers but using data on the LED sources I could find at the local hardware store the LED sources did not produce anywhere near as many lumens per dollar.

The job we were talking about was lighting the engine room and bilges of our Connies.  This is a task that consumes only several tens of hours per year and the power consumed is less than 200 watts so the total energy consumed is less than 10 kilowatt hours per year.  At 10 cents per KWH this only about $1.00.  It obviously is not a matter of any great concern. 

At the present time I am using incandescent lightbulbs which are only 20% as efficient as fluorescents.  Therefore it might cost me $5.00 per year to operate my bilge lights.  It still is obviously not a matter of any great concern. 

Your criteria for justifying LEDS (lifetime, power consumption, low output heat and ability to change color) may make make sense for some high usage systems.  But for the mundane task of illuminating the bilge the costs of installation and maintenance are the major factors of concern.

Because I have had heart problems in the past,  I have a thermometer mounted at the entrance to my engine room.  I make it a practice never to enter the engine room at temperatures above 110 degrees and know from constant observation that the temperature frequently is above 120 degrees after long runs.  The engines themselves run at 170 to 190 degrees and touching their surface will burn your skin.  If your LEDs will only stand 120 degrees you will have major problems using them for bilge lights.

I have no problem accepting new technology.  If someone can produce a better mousetrap I will buy it.  But only if it's at a reasonable price.  If you tell me it's going to cost $100 to light my bilges I'm not interested because that's more than I would ever spend in my lifetime using incandescent light bulbs.

The bill you speak of does not start until the year 2012 and won't include all incandescents until 2020.  Incandescents must be replaced with other types of bulbs eventually but there is no surety that the replacements will be LEDs.  That wiil depend on the relative costs for fluorescents, LEDs and other types of bulbs.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on October 28 2008 at 22:22


__________________
INTERLUDE
A Murray Chris Craft Constellation 500
Back to Top Printable version View Pete37's Profile Search for other posts by Pete37
 
vanphill
"Seaman Recruit"




Joined: December 05 2006
Posts: 14
Posted: October 28 2008 at 18:49 | IP Logged Quote vanphill

Pete:

I think you and I are making the same case in different ways!  LED's are showing a lot of potential, but they are not there yet!  I would address three points you made because I think their time will come.

First is Operating Air Temperature - the 120 is what we can get manufacturers to certify at the moment.  I said we have been asking for certification at 160 degrees.  You can use the LED at 200 degrees - but the problem is the power unit and manufacturers are reluctant to guarantee the long life that is a big attraction of LED - because they just don't know what would happen.  And, actually they are testing that for us now (driven by firms like ours for exterior uses in places like Kuwait, Qatar, UAE and yes Las Vegas and Phoenix.  LED will get there - but give it time.

Two is Cost vs. Output of Light.  As I said, the solutions we are seeing that are excellent are walking in our office door every couple of weeks, but these are very leading edge.  It will be some time before they make it to the local lighting distributor much less the local hardware store!  Your very right what you find in the local hardware store today are costly - very blueish - and have poor light output.  Again we will get there - but we have to give it time.

Finally, Will it get there?  It will and that is why I mentioned that big driving whip of the December 2009 deadline.  But, if you make lighting units, the first group  your going serve are designers like me on our big project.  Then you will worry about the household use market.  Why, because I'm driven by bigger factors than say a simple bathroom light fixture.  I have hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend on lighting for a Las Vegas Convention Center.  So my projects are paying for the R&D.  But, once they get the R&D done they will figure out 200,000 people with $10.00 each is a lot of money as well!

We just are not there - YET!  But the potentials are exciting!

In the three "If you want to look at LED now" examples I attached one was a navigation fitting.  I had a port running light that would work perfectly at the dock and blink on and off under way.  After hours of searching for the cause and needing to prove to the Coast Guard that I had fixed the problem - I finally could get the lamp to do the same thing when I  held a buffer against the fixture.  It was the vibration!  If we ever put Ark Angel in service (no, she has not yet sold) again I would seriously consider those fittings as LED is not effected by vibration.

There are some places like the nav lights where LED's have potential now.  For the engine room ............. maybe in the future.

Van (Ark Angel)






__________________
Ark Angel - The fresh water Constellation 500
Lafayette, Indiana

Slipped in St Joseph, Michigan
Back to Top Printable version View vanphill's Profile Search for other posts by vanphill
 
vanphill
"Seaman Recruit"




Joined: December 05 2006
Posts: 14
Posted: October 28 2008 at 18:56 | IP Logged Quote vanphill

Pete:

BTW, there are two dates 2009 and 2012!  One is manufacturing and the other is sales!  The companies who make the lamps have the shorter straw!

That is why the european company Philips (the philips who didn't go to Scotland with Mary) has bought up about every company doing the interesting work with LEDs.  The latest LED company to go to Philips was Color Kenitics - and it was cheap against the euro!

Van Phillips  (Ark Angel)

__________________
Ark Angel - The fresh water Constellation 500
Lafayette, Indiana

Slipped in St Joseph, Michigan
Back to Top Printable version View vanphill's Profile Search for other posts by vanphill
 
Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: October 28 2008 at 21:57 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Van,

I did a search on the web and read nearly every article on the new incandescent light ban that I could find.  Most of the reader's comments were uncomplementary.  Some were downright unprintable.

First, the plan is to convert all incandescents to CFLs (Compact Fluorescent Lamps?).  LEDs are hardly mentioned, but seem to be acceptable to the law on the basis of efficiency.  The problem with LEDs (at the moment) is that they are much more expensive than CFLs and incandescents.

At first the CFLs seem like a great idea.  They last a long time and only use about 20% of the energy of an incandescent.  But then the problems appear:

1.  Current CFLs won't fit a lot of existing lamp fixtures.

2. CFLs aren't compatible with existing dimmer switches and timers.

3. Turning CFLs on and off frequently shortens their life.

4. CFLs take several minutes to reach full illumination.

5. The new CFLs contain toxic mercury.  Wait until the housewives of America      learn that the CFLs are going to poison their children.  Instructions for CFLs say that if broken you should vacate the room.  How long?  They don't say.

6. There is no way to get three way lighting out of a CFL.  If you have a CFL on your TV room side table you want full brightness for reading, medium brightness for entertaining and low brightness for watching TV.  But the CFL can't do that.

7.  CFLs are temperature sensitive and simply won't work properly outdoors.  In some climates they won't even start in the winter.

8. CFLs are supposed to be disposed of at an approved disposal facility.  If that's several miles away how many people do you think will bother?  All that toxic mercury is going to wind up at your local dump.

9.  Many people complain that reading under a CFL causes severe eye strain.

10. The cost to retrofit a typical house with more than 100 incandescent bulbs of all sizes and types mounted in many different types of fixtures could be in the thousands of dollars (exclusive of the cost of the bulbs).

11. I'm waiting to see what my first string of CFL Christmas Tree lights will look like and cost.

Obviously many of these problems could be avoided with LEDs.  But LEDs have their own set of problems. 

This is a well intentioned bill and the reduction in energy consumption is laudable.  But I think that a lot of modifications are going to have to be made before it's practical.

In the meantime, I'm not going to worry about changing the lights in the bilge of my boat.  When suitable bulbs are available I will replace my incandescent lamps.  In the meantime, I like you, will make do with the old fashioned but dependable kerosene lantern.  The efficiency of kerosene lanterns does not have to be improved to comply with the new law.

Pete37

 



Edited by Pete37 on October 28 2008 at 22:17


__________________
INTERLUDE
A Murray Chris Craft Constellation 500
Back to Top Printable version View Pete37's Profile Search for other posts by Pete37
 
vanphill
"Seaman Recruit"




Joined: December 05 2006
Posts: 14
Posted: October 29 2008 at 15:27 | IP Logged Quote vanphill

Pete:

I couldn't agree with you more about CFLs and all of their problems!  Because of their power consumption my wife and I have put in a few - guess where locations - storage closets!  And yes I hate them in the bed table lamps in hotel / motels today, but understand why they are using them to save money.

In our ofice we are currently using some PAR 20s and 30s (parabolic reflector) lamps (people call them bulbs) in LED designed to be used in existing recessed can style lights or track spotlights for displays and art.  We were so impressed that we made the sales rep. leave 4 of them and then I asked the facilities managers / lamp specifiers in from the 3 public school systems, Purdue, and the County Public Library (with its 3 facilities) to look at them side by side with an incandescent 75 watt par.  They all agreed the color was equal - the light output was 85% but at only 24 watts (so 1/3rd) and you can hold them as they are so much cooler operating.  All 5 groups are now testing these lamps in their own facilities - in existing light fixtures.  Cost is 2.5 to 3 times that of an incandescent PAR - but the lamp life goes from 1200 to 2000 hours to 50,000 hours.  So if you are a facilities manager and you know 33% of your energy budget is lighting (not counting the added air conditioning load)  and the money you spend on staff changing lamps - you're talking real financial savings even at three times the cost!  If groups like those, you use thousands of lamps (bulbs) a year, switch to the new lamps - watch the price drop like a stone.

And - no that group was not interested in CFLs!

The only downside to the new PARs is that these won't dim!

If your interested in where this is going look at the the options from the company who has the LED PARs and their products.  www.fclighting.com/

And for Christmas lights see -  note the 100,000 lamp life and 7 year guarantee!  http://shop.christmascentral.com/items/item.aspx?itemid=6402 224

I would love to live long enough to see the eventual evolution of lighting beyond incandescent and fluorescent types for household use.


Van







__________________
Ark Angel - The fresh water Constellation 500
Lafayette, Indiana

Slipped in St Joseph, Michigan
Back to Top Printable version View vanphill's Profile Search for other posts by vanphill
 
Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: October 29 2008 at 17:06 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Van,

I guess I'm just getting old and not keeping up with technology. Cry I bought some CFLs a couple years ago and put them in the garage.  But they take quite a while to get up to full brightness and by the time they did I had long since left the garage.  Took them down and replaced them with incandescents.  They're sitting in a drawer in the workbench.  I'll find a use for them someday.

I don't know why they are so unpleasant to read by. Dead There must be some solid physical reason.  It's not just me because an awful lot of people complain they're no good for reading.  But no one reads any more anyway.

While Home Depot carries some LED lights, I don't think our local hardware store even carries them.  They're expensive and the demand just hasn't developed yet. 

I did some quick calculations and it costs about $12 to run a 100 watt bulb for it's lifetime of 1125 hours.  I'm typically using a reading lamp about 6 hours a day for one reason or another so in a year I run 2190 hours which is just a little under two bulbs worth.  Tongue

That means my yearly reading light bill is about $25 which doesn't scare me particulary.  With 50,000 hours of lifetime I won't be able to use up an LED reading light in my lifetime.  Can I get a refund (posthumously) on the unused LED lifetime?  Or maybe I could buy a bulb with only a 20,000 hour lifetime.Ouch

When we travel, my wife and I always pack a couple of 100 watt bulbs in our luggage to use for reading.  It's not because the motels are all using CFLs but because many of them are using 25 watt bulbs.Confused

Pete37



__________________
INTERLUDE
A Murray Chris Craft Constellation 500
Back to Top Printable version View Pete37's Profile Search for other posts by Pete37
 
vanphill
"Seaman Recruit"




Joined: December 05 2006
Posts: 14
Posted: October 29 2008 at 17:29 | IP Logged Quote vanphill

Pete:

I'm right there with you! 

The reason the CFL was slow coming to brightness was the cold!  All gas fired lamps CFL's, FLs, cold cathode and even neon do not work well if it is cold.  Below freezing most won't even fire on.  That is why people in the North leave neon signs on even in the daytime.

The reason you get depressed using CFLs is the color in their usable light spectrum and the same reason the self inflected deaths in places lie Norway are so high during their long winters.  Incandescent lights are not full spectrum either - but they have the part of the light spectrum we are more comfortable with.  There is a lot of psychological data that supports what you are saying.  That is why they say to get outside if it is sunny even if it is cold during the winter.  I think it is even harder on boaters!

For what its worth the only lighting lamp that is "Full Spectrum" is Quartz.  That is why those little MR16 lamps are so popular in Northern Europe.  You see them here in Jewelery Stores and Malls.  You can get those at Lowes and Home Depot! 

Van




__________________
Ark Angel - The fresh water Constellation 500
Lafayette, Indiana

Slipped in St Joseph, Michigan
Back to Top Printable version View vanphill's Profile Search for other posts by vanphill
 
]
] ]
 

If you wish to post a reply to this topic you must first login
If you are not already registered you must first register

  Post ReplyPost New Topic

] ] ]
]
  ]
Printable version Printable version
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
]
] ]

] ] ]
]
©2014, Boat Owners Association of The United States. All Rights Reserved.
This page was generated in 0.9375 seconds.
]
] ]