Posted: April 18 2013 at 13:30 | IP Logged

Wayne, Pete, Emory and all,

I have been following the chat concerning the water tank. It appears water accumulating under the tank is a big part of tank deterioration. As covered before, I have eliminated water from getting into any bilge area. If there is fluid anywhere I know something has to be checked out. Also, as I said before, I consider a messy bilge a hindrance to preventative maintainence checks and a safety issue; it keeps you from being able to observe any new leak of water, fuel, oil, etc.

To the point of water getting under the fresh water tank, there are a few ways water can get there. If you have a master ensuite head on the srarboard side, with a tub (three total heads on board), there is a drain sump for the tub/shower usually located in the den state room (ours is under the desk). A factory installed  sump system could overflow when underway. This water will go right under the  water tank; the shower drain sump in the head across from the den may also overflow to under the water tank depending on location. It would be a good idea to replace the sump with a newer unit with a covered top (along with all the shower sumps). A McGiver fix is to put one of those clear cheap shower caps over the sump with an elastic stretch cord around it.

Some of the Connies have air conditioning condensation overflows draining into the bilge; if the upper saloon and/or master state room ac drains this way, it probably ends up going under the water tank. You may be able to reroute those hoses to the shower sump.

Of course, any water leak from those notorious bad fresh water line connectors can be hard to locate and could end up under the tank. Another reason to keep a dry bilge... it will much easier to locate even a small leak. 

Posted: April 18 2013 at 20:28 | IP Logged

Hi All,

Subject: Water Tanks

After all these problems with multiple tanks it makes me feel that perhaps it would be better to settle  for a single 100 gallon tank under the office floor.  I certainly wouldn't want to tear that floor out two times.  If more capacity is wanted perhaps a second tank of about 60 gallons could be rigged at a higher location that could be drained into the under office tank if and when it goes dry. 

 Finding a location for that tank would of course be a problem.  One place would be in the under galley compartment although that would require a rather long pipe to the under office location.

Another place would be a saddle tank between the starboard wall of the office and the outer hull. There is quite a large space in there and that would also tend to counteract the list to port that most Connies have.

Pete37

Posted: April 18 2013 at 20:44 | IP Logged

Hi Dave,

Subject: Dry Bilges

We would all like to have dry bilges.  The problem of course is that most of us have shaft logs that leak (both engine and rudder).  Rudder shaft log leakage, however, is minor and could probably be fixed easily.  But the engine shaft logs are much harder to fix.  Several of us have been trying to get the old packing out and replace it with new packing without success.

One possibility would be to build catch basins under each shaft log and pump the basins out with a small bilge pump such as a shower sump pump.  This is a possible solution but rather expensive and messy. 

So far no one has felt that minor amounts of water in the bilge justify the expense and trouble.

Pete37

Posted: April 18 2013 at 22:17 | IP Logged

Hi Emory,

Subjects: Water Tanks, Lectra-Sans & Stuffing Extractors

Right now I don't have to install a new tank so this is all "what if" ruminations.  If my tank eventually ruptures I'll have to get busy and think all the options over again more seriously. 

The location I was looking at in the office wall was above the exhaust pipe.  There's an access port on the wall and I've opened it and looked in a number of times.  If I have to install a tank I'll look over all your stuff again.  It's all in my records.

Fortunately, I don't have a Lectra-San to fight with.  When my Galley Maid system went bad years ago I replaced it with a holding tank.  We have a marina head only a few steps away so while at the dock we usually use that.  So the number of pump outs isn't very great and I don't have to worry about the proliferation of "No Discharge" zones.

Years ago, when I had a wooden boat, I needed a caulking extractor. I took a small screwdriver, heated it up with a torch and beat it into a hook shape.  Don't know where it is now but I could probably do it again and miight be able to get a shape that would pull the shaft packing out.

BTW:  I've been using a compressor to blow out the fresh water lines for years.  Works great.  Best way to do it.  Just remember to keep blowing untill all the water is out

Pete37

Posted: April 18 2013 at 23:47 | IP Logged

Hi Emory,

Subject: Packing Extractor

Here ia a picture of some tools that look like my old hand-made caulking extractor:

Either one would probably work but I think the bottom one would be more effective.

You can find them at

http://www.packinghooks.com/rigid-packing.html

Just stick the pointed end into the packing as far as you can, rotate the tool so the shaft is parallel to the engine shaft and then pull the packing out.

No guarantees but it might work,

Pete37

Posted: April 19 2013 at 09:14 | IP Logged

Engine and rudder shaft leaks, Lectra Sans and water tank location:

Place multiple 3M commercial sponges under the engine shafts around the drainage hole area in the strut. They will absorb the water and keep it from draining elsewhere in the boat. While underway and upon reaching your destination, engine heat will help dry out the sponges. Depending on the leakage, you may ocassionally have to rinse the sponges into a bucket. When the boat is setting at the dock the sponges should take care of themself or again, may need an ocassional rinse out.

Remove the bottom drawer in the master stateroom and place multiple 3M commercial sponges around the rudder shaft area. Again, this should keep drainage from going elsewhere in the boat. 

Hopefully your boat is leaking a lot less dockside and the sponges will keep any leakage controled and be an aid in monitoring engine and rudder leaks. Using sponges, even temporarily, may keep the water contained for awhile, so you can see if your boat has any other leaks and will be an aid in determining where they are coming from. If your engine shaft and rudder leaks are overwhelmimg the sponges, it is time to get them fixed properly.

I have three Lectra Sans on board with the electronic control boards, not the old manual dial timer control. If you have the dial set up THE WHOLE SYSTEM SHOULD BE REPLACED. They will continue to operate and dump out raw sewage when you do not have the correct salt mixture or proper voltage to complete the treatment cycle or some other malfunction; therefore, the holding container box will not work properly, will need cleaning or element replacing. Not to mention odors. I have taken my Lectra Sans holding tanks apart many times and they looked almost new and have not had to clean them. In fact, I took one of them to Raritan for a macerator replacement and the technician was shocked; said the electropak was the cleanest he has ever seen (I think it was about nine years old). Upon leaving the boat I run each head three times through the treatment cycle. When I winterize, I run the system three to five times and then drain the heads, lines and the holding box. I use a wet vac to empty the holding box and the water comes out clear with no odors. I use sea water to flush the heads and do not have any odors. I can use the heads without using any water from the fresh water holding tank and the heads will work if there is a fresh water system breakdown. Spending extra time at winterization pays dividends for me for the upcoming season. If you need help on cleaning the holding box refer to the manual or call Raritan in Millvile, NJ. They are very good with walking you through any problem.

I would think you could use the area above the engine room fuel tanks for a fresh water tank. Of course being careful of installing it so not to cause any future problems for the fuel or water tank. The port side fuel tank has the hull side deck water fill right there. On the subject of water tanks, I do not use docside water for fresh water. I always use the holding tank. Seem to have less pump repairs and maintenance and feel safer. At most only 160 gallons will leak into the boat with a broken pipe or connection.     

Posted: April 19 2013 at 11:02 | IP Logged

Hi Emory,

Subjects: Packing Extractor and Muriatic Acid

The key to getting the packing extractor to work is that it must have a sharp point in order to penetrate the packing.  If you can get the point to bury in the packing I guarantee it will remove the packing.  If you can't it wont work.

The muriatic acid commonly sold to the public in stores has about a 32% strength.  This seems to be plenty strong enough for everything I have tried to do.  I would be very cautious about getting higher strengths.  There is a good reason why 32% is the highest strength sold to the general public.  Higher strengths are dangerous and burn the skin imediately.  They are rubber gloves only chemicals.

You can probably get higher strengths from a chemical supply firm but you wont find it at local hardware stores and shipping it may be a problem. UPS and other shipping firms dont want to handle it.  I checked on the web and it is readily available from multiple sources.  High strengths are available but at much higher prices than the 32%Unfortunately many of the sources don't mention the strength.  If they don't mention the strength it's probably 32%. I don't recommend using higher strengths and please dont recommend it to anyone on the forum.

Unfortunately, I think that an awful lot of what goes into holding tanks eventually goes into the bay.  I don't see long lines at marina pump out stations.  But our marina has a "honey wagon" that comes around to your slip on Wednesdays and pumps out your tank for free (actually the cost is built into your slip fees).  So maybe a lot more "honey" is properly disposed of than I think.

Pete37

Posted: April 21 2013 at 09:34 | IP Logged

Hi Dave,

Subject: Dry Bilges

When you say "Place multiple 3M commercial sponges under the engine shafts around the drainage hole area in the strut. They will absorb the water and keep it from draining elsewhere in the boat." I don't think you understand what the magnitude of the problem is.

My boat typically has a trickle of water coming out of the stuffing boxes.  Yes, I know how to tighten up the stuffing boxes and periodically do so.  And, when the stuffing boxes have been properly tightened up they only produce a couple drops per minute.  But after a few hours of running they go back to the trickle mode.

What do I mean by a trickle?  Basically it's a stream about 1/16" wide which is just about the point where the stream breaks up into individual droplets.

I did some testing today.  A trickle will fill an 8 ounce cup in about a minute. In an hour it produces about 4 gallons and in a day nearly 100 gallons.  I'm going to have to have a hell of a lot of "3M commercial sponges" to handle that.

The only solution is to repack the shaft logs.  I bought the packing quite some time ago but so far haven't been able to remove the old packing.  I believe Emory has the same problem.  Has anyone successfully removed the old packing and "if so" how?

Pete37

Posted: April 21 2013 at 13:05 | IP Logged

Hi Emory,

What packing I got out of my stuffing box looked like flax.  Being a packrat, I kept it for future reference.  But I'm damned if I know where it is.  My old caulking removal tool is also missing but I think it's in one of my tool boxes in the garage.  That tool I found on the web looks very similar to my old caulking tool.

Unfortunately I'm busy getting the boat ready for the season and can't stop everything to work on the stuffing box problem.  It's annoying but hasn't worked itself up to an "A" rating on my "To Do on Boat" list.  I think when I get back at that job I'll buy a tool like the one in the picture and try it.  It's much simpler than most of your other alternatives.

Pete37

PS:  I did what your old sage suggested last fall and added a new ring of packing which did reduce the leakage quite a bit.  But in order to get down to Dave Ross's standard I'll probably have to remove it all.

Posted: April 22 2013 at 10:58 | IP Logged

To all:

Those who post here have to be Boat US members, so I assuume you have received in an e-mail from Boat US regarding the proposed $26 boat ducumentation fee. Everyone, including those who follow the chat and and are not Boat US members, should go to the the Boat US and/or Coast Guard web site for info, questions or input.

Pete: I did not realize your leak flow was 4 gallons per hour.... sounds like repacking time for the engine shafts and rudders. Next time your boat is hauled may be the best time to have a complete rudder check and repair. The engine shafts sound like your worst leak.

Emory: The "diluted" muriatc acid sold at local stores is fine for as needed cleaning of the Lectran Sans. I know the Lectra Scan system you have is the newer version, but I am not familiar with the it's operation or maintenance. I assume from what you stated, muriatic acid is sugested for your system also. However, I would trouble shoot the system first for loose or corroded connections or terminal boards, proper power, salt content, etc. Again, the manual should provide good information and Raritan in Millville, NJ has always given me good service and help over the phone. I disconnected my automatic salt feed. I use an empty Planters Peanut plastic jar and a Counrty Time Lemonade scoup from their large container. This has eliminated all the maintenance of that feed system. I keep a jar at each head and use 2 scoups with each use (and also 2 scoops with each of the three clear flush/treatments upon leaving the boat for awhile). I also set my system to flush independently of the treatment system. I have found this works out better and gives versitility during the season of use and at winterizing and commissioning time. These suggestions may not be applicable to your Electra Scan system, as mentioned, I am not familiar with that system. 

Posted: April 23 2013 at 14:57 | IP Logged

Hi All,

Subject: New Documentation Fees

I found a news item (dated March 4, 2013) on the proposed increase of documentation fees but not on the Boat US or CG sites.  Another unpleasant levy but I doubt there's anything we can do about it.  About all you can do is comment that you don't like it.  I doubt that cuts much ice.

I assume that the fees would apply to next years documentation renewal rather than this year.

Pete37

Posted: April 23 2013 at 15:06 | IP Logged

Hi Dave,

Subject: Shaft Repacking

Yeah, unless I can find a way to get the packing removed while she's afloat it will have to wait for hauling.  It's too late to schedule it for this year so I guess it will just have to wait until 2014.  In the meantime she'll just continue to drip as she has for the last 19 years.  It's not a crisis.

Pete37

Posted: May 15 2013 at 11:23 | IP Logged

I checked for Jim’s obituary at Beach Funeral Home in Florida and found the following:

“James T. Rabey of Indian Harbour Beach, Fl passed away peacefully on May 1, 2013. Born September 11, 1952 in Washington, D.C., Jim attended Northwestern High School and received a bachelor’s degree in accounting from the University of Maryland, College Park. He worked in the finance or accounting departments for several companies, most recently AAR Airlift. He was an avid boater who was eager to learn and to share his knowledge.

He is survived by his wife of thirty-eight years, Marie, and their three daughters: Melissa Rabey of Ellicott City, MD; Meredith and Steven Reynaga of San Fernando, CA; and Elizabeth and Orpheus Vasquez of Richmond, VA. He was the proud grandfather of Maximillian Reynaga. He is remembered fondly by his family and friends.

A memorial service will be held on Friday May 10, 2013 at 5:30pm at Beach Funeral Home 1689 South Patrick Dr. Indian Harbour Beach, Florida 32937.

In lieu of flowers, the family requests donations to be made to United Cerebral Palsy 1221 W. Colonial Dr., Ste. 300 Orlando, FL 32804”.

I was surprised that he was only 60 years old.  That’s much too young to pass away.  I can see why his passing was called a “sudden passing”.  We’ll miss you Jim!

Pete37

Posted: May 15 2013 at 11:30 | IP Logged

Hi All,

Subject: Good News

I saw the following on the web on May 14th:

The IEA has projected that the U.S. will overtake Saudi Arabia to become the world's biggest oil producer before 2020, and will be energy independent by 2030.

I'm sure that Obama's windmills had a lot to do with that.  Perhaps we will see some reduction in fuel prices in the future.

Pete37

Posted: May 17 2013 at 13:53 | IP Logged

Hi All,

Subject: How to Cut you Fuel Bills in Half

Fuel bills are one of the biggest expenses in running a yacht.  And all indications are that even though the US is on the road to becoming energy independent, fuel costs will probably increase.  Wouldn’t it be nice to find a way to cut your fuel bills in half?

Well there are ways to do that.  The first is simply to slow down.  When fuel shot up from $1.00 per gallon to $4.00 per gallon in the first decade of this century Connie owners got the message and slowed down from cruising at 2000 rpm (18 knots) to cruising at 1400 rpm (10 knots).  At 2000 rpm the fuel consumption was about 42 gpm while at 1400 rpm it is about 14 gpm.  In terms of nautical miles per gallon that reduces the fuel consumption from 42/18 = 2.33 gpm at 2000 rpm to 14/10 = 1.40 gpm.   That increases the miles per gallon (mpg) by 2.33/1.4 = 1.66 times (a 66% improvement).  In terms of cost, the cost to go a mile ($/m) 1.40/2.33 = 0.60 (60%) of the former cost (assuming constant fuel price).  Of course it takes longer to get there but yachting is supposed to be a leisure time activity

But fuel price has not remained constant.  It has increased by 4X.  Even with slowing down, our net fuel costs have risen by (4.00/1.00) x 0.60 = 2.4 times (240%).  So fuel costs are still a major PITA and yachtsmen have been trying to figure out additional ways to cut fuel costs.

Well there are ways to do that.  Most of us have developed the habit of day-tripping.  By that I mean that we start out on Saturday morning, cruise to our favorite anchorage, stay there 8 hours and then return to the dock. At 10 knots (the speed most of our going these days) it takes one hour to reach an anchorage 10 miles away.  On a day-trip 10 miles is about as far as most of us would want to go.  It takes 1 hours to get to the anchorage, we spend 8 hours there and we spend 1 hour getting back.  Plus we spend 2 hours  getting to the boat and prepping it before we leave and a similar amount of time tying up and getting back home.  So a day trip works out to about (2+1+8+1+2) = 14 hours.

So we’ve cruised 20 miles at 1.4 mpg and consumed 28 gallons which costs us about $112 (assuming about $4.00 per gallon).  On a typical weekend, if we enjoyed our first trip and if the weather is still good many of us will repeat Saturday’s cruise on Sunday.  This brings our weekend fuel costs to $224.  Not a killer, but annoying.

Of course, if we had made our destination a marina, we could have overnighted at the marina and returned home the next day.  That way we only spend $112 for one round trip.  Typical dockage at $2.00 per foot would be $100 with about $20 for TV and power hookups.  Total cost would be ($112+$100+20) = $232 (almost the same as day-tripping for two days).  So marina- hopping saves fuel costs but really doesn’t cut overall expenses much. But, if our destination is a marina more than 10 miles away, overnighting at a marina can actually be cheaper than two days of day-tripping.

The next obvious thought which comes to mind is; Can we eliminate the marina costs by anchoring out?.   The answer of course is yes if we are willing to run our genny 24 hours per day.  Fuel consumption for the genny at half load is only about 19 gallons per day or at $4.00 per gallon $76.  This is a potential saving over the marina of about $44. But do we want to listen to that genny rumbling and growling all night?

Also marinas have amenities such as Cable TV, power, restaurants, Laundromats, nearby stores, swimming pools, etc.  Do we really want to forgo all of that for $44 per day?  The answer of course is “maybe” if the amenities outweigh our attachment to our favorite anchorage.

And the next obvious thought is; can we do something to reduce the amount of time and load on the genny?  The answer again is “yes” but at this point the subject becomes more complex.

The only items on our Connies that require AC power 24/7 are the refrigerator and icemaker.  The icemaker is redundant since the fridge also has an icemaker.  But the fridge must be kept going morning, noon and night unless we want to have spoiled food.

During the day powering the fridge isn’t much of a problem.  Meals come at about 5 hour intervals and at those times the genny must be run.  No inverter can handle the galley loads.  And, if we assume two hour meal periods with the genny running, the 60 amp battery charger most of our Connies have should charge the house battery banks with about 120 ampere hours (Ah).  During these periods we can use any and all AC loads up to the capacity of the genny (20kW).  So if you have any heavy duty AC jobs to do, these are the times to do them.

During the 3 hour periods between mealtimes all AC loads must be powered via an inverter deriving its power from the house battery bank (HBB).  Most of our HBBs are 450 Ah banks.  These batteries are usually of the automotive type which can only be used from 50% to 80% of full charge. 

My fridge uses about 140 watts at 120 volts.  At 12 volts this is a draw of about 12 amps. During 3 hours this would amount to 36 Ah leaving only 100 Ah for other loads.  At 120 volts this is only 10 amps or 1200 watt hours (Wh). So during the 3 hour period the maximum average AC wattage which could be supported would be about 400 watts. 

Unfortunately the HBB has other 12 volt systems to be supported which probably use up about half of the batteries power so the AC wattage which could be supported would only be about 200 watts; about the load of a small solid state flat screen TV.

From the above we can see that using the HBB to power AC loads isn’t a very smart idea.  It can’t power much even over only a three hour period and if overloaded could run the batteries down to the point where the critical house DC loads (such as bilge pumps) wouldn’t operate.

During the 9 hour night period (10 PM to 7 AM)  the fridge uses 108 ampere hours which when combined with the HBB’s DC loads is more than the useable capacity of the HBB so that kills any hope of using the HBB bank to supply other AC loads.

Therefore, an additional battery bank which I call the Inverter Battery Bank (IBB) is required.  Batteries are expensive and therefore you want to use as few as possible.  After some analysis I have selected four six volt 225 Ah deep discharge batteries for the HBB. 

When combined in a series/parallel configuration they produce a 12 volt 450 Ah HBB.  Deep discharge batteries can be repeatedly drawn down to as little as 30% of full charge without damage.  Automotive type batteries used in the same mode would fail in less than a year.  So we have a IBB with a useable capacity of 450(0.8-0.3) = 225 Ah.

One might question why the capacity between 0.80 and 1.00 isn’t used in these calculations.  The reason is that a battery can be charged from 50% to 75% in only about an hour.  But charging from 75% to 100% takes 5 to 7 hours more.  In a repetitive charge/discharge mode there simply isn’t enough time to charge to 100%.

During the 3 hour day periods when the genny is off the fridge uses 36 Ah and if the IBB starts at 80% of full charge (360Ah) it has (360-36) = 334 Ah (74% of full charge) and still has 44% (198 Ah) for miscellaneous loads before reaching the low end of its useable capacity.  This would allow an average load of nearly 800 watts at 120 volts to be supported.

During the 9 hour night period the fridge still uses 108 Ah and if the IBB starts at 80% of full charge (360Ah) it has (360-108) = 252 Ah (56% of full charge) in the morning to work with and still has 26% (117 Ah) to for miscellaneous loads before reaching the low end of its useable capacity.  Fortunately the miscellaneous nighttime loads are small and intermittent.

At this point in the design of the system to provide 24/7 AC power I have completed the design of the HBB.  But the total system will require an inverter and battery charger.  I have selected the Wagan 3000 watt unit for the inverter It will supply 3000 watts continuous and 6000 watts intermittent. 

The existing 60 amp battery charger on most Connies is inadequate for the rapid recharge of the HBB batteries.  Therefore the Power Designs 100 amp battery charger has been selected.

All that remains is to buy the components, mount them in the boat and wire them up.  I have selected the compartment under the galley (UG Compartment) for the location of the inverter system.  I have also worked out the wiring but that’s too messy to discuss here.

Unfortunately, the fresh water system for the boat was located in the UG Compartment and had to be removed and reinstalled in the Generator Compartment.  This was scheduled for two to three days but has taken more than 10 days.

The total cost of the system looks like about $1000.  I use about $3,300 worth of fuel per year.  If the inverter system allows me to anchor out and save half of my fuel costs it will save about $1,650 per year and will pay for itself in less than a year.

Two final obstacles remain to be solved.  First, find the money for the system.  That’s done.  Second, get my wife’s permission to do it.  Happily that’s done too; she’s enthusiastic.

I’ve got a lot of other things to do on the boat and we’ll be taking a short vacation.  Hope I’ll finish the inverter installation by July.

Pete37

PS:  After re-proofing my post I found a couple of mathematical boo-boos and corrected them.

I also thought a little about what the inverter system would save me.  In ten years @ $1,650 per year it would $16,500 and with the inflation of fuel prices it might well be over $20K.  That's some serious cash!  But I'm not sure I'll have my Connie for anothe ten years.