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Fantasy
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Joined: November 30 2006
Posts: 324
Posted: December 18 2006 at 19:40 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Hi Pete,

I'm interested in your accuracy numbers for the Floscan diesels.  Those are big discrepancies you mention and would affect my decision of whether or not to install them.  Do you have a source where I could research that further?  Thurman, has that been your experience?

As you noted in an earlier post, the boat's trim angle has a major effect on the tank floats and gauge readings, which causes me to be very conservative in estimating fuel onboard.  Being able to hold off on the next fill untill we can make a relatively inexpensive fuel stop is important, often saving hundreds of dollars.

Exhaust pyrometers and remote mounted vacuum gauges for the Racor's are two additions that the multi-function Floscans would allow me to have room for.

John



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Pete37
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Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: December 18 2006 at 19:44 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Furman,

Yes, there are good paint jobs and bad paint jobs.  But I've been looking at Connies for a long time and I don't think I've ever seen one with the wood trim painted over.  I'll take a look at the brokers pages (there are about 40 Connies there) to see if I can find one.

Sorry you are having trouble posting pictures.  Tell me what's going wrong and maybe I can help you.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on December 18 2006 at 21:35


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Furman1
"Deckhand"




Joined: November 27 2006
Posts: 227
Posted: December 18 2006 at 21:18 | IP Logged Quote Furman1

John,

There are dip switches on the rear of the newer Floscans that allow you to ajust the fuel usage to exactly match your fuel use.  I have had very good experence with them. If your gages say you  have used 97 gallons you put 97 gallons in and you're topped off.

BTW I talked with several boat repair people regarding the numercal temp guages. They said that they had installed them on various boats and all of the owners had them taken out after a short while. Seems that the numbers keep bouncing around (the engines are constanly changing a few degrees temp) and this "drove the owners crazy" seems they were always fearful that something was going on when actually it was normal engine temp. variations.

Pete when I get the photo downloaded it doesn't show up on the post reply screen. I've made sure it is the proper size in kbs

Furman



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Pete37
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Posted: December 18 2006 at 21:29 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Fantasy,

Consider your boat traveling along at cruising speed (18 knots) burning about 20 gallons per per hour (gph) per engine (40 gph total).  You're getting about 0.45 mpg.  Your fuel flow gauge is reading only one engine which is consuming 20 gph but about 100 gph (550 Hp. 6V92TI) is going through the engine to cool the injectors.  If the gauge that measures the fuel into the engine has an error of +/- 1% then the error in measuring the fuel in is +/- 1 gph.  And since the guage which measures the output flow has (100-20) = 80 gph going through it the error will be +/- 0.8 gph if the output guage is also a 1% instrument. 

Your input flow is therefore 99 to 101 gph and your output flow is 79.2 to 80.8 and the difference can be anywhere from 99-80.8 = 18.2 to 101-79.2 = 21.8.  Or rounding that off a bit 20 +/- 2 gph.  That's a 10% error.

Getting a 1% error in the basic gauge is difficult.  The guages are propellers mounted in the fuel line which rotate as the fuel passes by.  As the propellers rotate they interrupt a beam of light passing from a source to a detector.  This produces a digital output signal but the actual  propeller rotation is an analog process. 

Any friction on the propeller bearings,  contamination on the propeller blades or particles in the fuel can change the rate of rotation of one or both propellers causing errors.  Therefore getting even 1% accuracy in the basic gauges is very difficult to accomplish.  And as described above a basic 1% accuracy leads to a 10% error in diesel fluel flow meters because of the differencing problems.  With real gauges working in real environments 20% errors are not uncommon

I am sure that the salesmen will tell you it ain't so but can you believe a saleman?  What do you expect him to say?

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on December 19 2006 at 10:46


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Ken27
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Joined: December 12 2006
Posts: 138
Posted: December 18 2006 at 22:00 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Pete,

Our boat was in the service building for about a month for some work and then moved outside and shrinkwrapped.  It's the one in the main parking lot, at the northern most point.  How do you like that fresh bottom paint?  BTW, you can check out our web site at www.bayportmarina.com.  I've been in the marina since 1985.

Now, can you or someone give me a quick course on exhaust pyrometers?

Thanks,

Ken



Edited by Sonja Lowe on September 25 2013 at 11:11


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Pete37
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Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: December 18 2006 at 22:16 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Furman,

I looked at 46 Connies for sale on the Yachtworld site.  None of them had the wood trim painted cream to match the hull.  The photos weren't great so some small parts of the trim could have been painted (such as the toe rails).  Also someone could have painted the wood with a wood colored paint and I woudn't have been able to detect that.

But in general very few people paint the wood trim.  Buyers expect the wood trim to be varnished and any broker will tell you that painting wood trim rather than varnishing it will detract from the saleability of a boat.  It is amazing what a good varnish guy can do with even badly deteriorated wood.  I have also seen them remove paint from neglected trim.

I suspect that you picture problem may be do to the physical size of the picture you are uploading.  Make sure it is about 4" to 5" wide.  You can always resize and reposition it when you get it on your post.  Do you have any friendly computer gurus around who could help you.  By friendly I mean the type that don't charge for their services.

I'm sort of curious as to why so many owners feel that it is necessary to have a Floscan aboard to accomplish the simple task of measuring the amount of fuel in their tanks.  They all seem to say that they don't trust their fuel gauges.  But fuel gauges have been around for a long time and are quite reliable.  Accuracy certainly isn't a problem because most of the gauges are good to about 10%.  And if you don't trust the gauge you can always tell when your tanks are full by putting your ear to the fill pipe.

Perhaps the problem is that most of the Connies were built with unreliable fuel gauges.  If the fuel gauges are are as bad as that Teleflex temp gauge I would agree that something better is needed.  What type of fuel gauges do you have and why do you mistrust them?

It has occurred to me that perhaps Chris Craft's rather flaky arrangement for displaying the fuel is at fault.  There is no way to tell from the bridge which tanks you are running from.  You could for example see that your aft tanks are full and assume everything is OK because you are running from them yet run out of fuel because you are actually running on your empty forward tanks.  Of course that brings up the question "How does the Floscan know which tanks you are running from?"  I assume that everyone has both forward and aft tanks.  Am I wrong?

Pete37



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Pete37
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Posted: December 18 2006 at 22:34 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Ken,

Your marina looks pretty in the summer (from the marina web site photo).  Looks like some of the docks are floating docks.  This is my view from space.

I don't quite see your boat in this picture.  Which one is it.  When they're covered with blue tarps they all look alike.  Could it be that big blue blob on the right?  Of course I don't know when this was taken but it must be fairly recent because all the boats are winterized and on shore.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on December 19 2006 at 10:44


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Fantasy
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Joined: November 30 2006
Posts: 324
Posted: December 18 2006 at 23:20 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Ken,

Here is a brief overview on the value of pyrometers:

<link removed>

Re: fuel gauges, I have a friend with an older Chris who sticks his tanks with a graduated pole.  That's probably as accurate as you can get but my swim platform gets wet an slippery while underway.  So, I'm looking for a better way of measuring fuel use before the engines start to "sputter" as Pete describes.  I appreciate both Thurman's anecdotal and Pete's theoretical reviews.  I've asked Flo-scan's technical people to give me their take and I'll post if I get more information.

John



Edited by Sonja Lowe on September 19 2013 at 14:26
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Pete37
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Joined: November 12 2006
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Posted: December 19 2006 at 10:02 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Furman,

Here is the picture of your boat "Lady"

She's a nice looking boat.  It looks like you have a plow or CQR anchor hanging from the bow.  I had no problem in uploading the picture.  I'll get the picture of your swim platform uploaded in a little while.

Pete37



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Pete37
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Posted: December 19 2006 at 10:37 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Ken,

I think you have misinterpreted what I said.  The reason the engines were sputtering had nothing to do with the fuel gauges.  They were working perfectly.  Even if I had dipped the tanks with a stick the same thing would have happened.

The problem was that I thought I was running off the forward tanks but was actually running off the aft tanks.  The forward tanks were full but the aft tanks nearly empty.  Unfortunately there is no way on Connies to tell from either console which tanks you are running on.  And Floscans won't change that problem.  Unless you add  sensor switches to the tank valves and somehow couple them to the Floscans or displays on the consoles you still won't know which tanks you are running on.

Since then I have solved the tank uncertainty problem.  Whenever I check the tanks I check both fore and aft tanks.  And if either set of tanks looks low I check the tank valves to see which way they are set.

The article you quote describes the value of exhaust pyrometers very well.  And as the article says you won't detect overheat problems early enough unless you have pyrometers or diligently monitor your temp gauges.  I do diligently monitor the temp gauges and have recorded temp readings in my engine logs for nearly every trip I have made in the last 12 years.  And if I see the least bit of abnormality I check it out immediately.

I should probably add exhaust pyrometers but so far have just depended on the temp gauges.  But if I had the temp gauges they put in 1985 Connies I would have no way to monitor small engine temp changes. 

Pete37



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Pete37
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Posted: December 19 2006 at 11:47 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Furman,

Here is the picture of the extended swimdeck you put on "Lady".  I also found out why your pictures weren't uploading.

The problem was that your file name was too long and contained punctuation. 

Shorten up the filename and eliminate the punctuation and everything should work fine.  You could also increase the size of the file a bit to get better resolution.  This was 27 Kb.  They say you can go to 100 Kb but to be safe I would keep them to under 80 Kb.

Pete37

 

 

 

 



Edited by Pete37 on December 19 2006 at 11:51


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Fantasy
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Posted: December 19 2006 at 14:17 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Hi Pete,

You responded to Ken in your post #45 (12/19 10:37) but I think you meant to respond to me (John).

I did hear back from the Flo-scan technical services department and here is the gist of what they had to say on our comments:

"John,
They are both correct and incorrect in their statements. They are correct in describing the Detroit Diesel's fuel system, in that the return fuel flow is used to cool the unit injectors. The return-flow temperature is substantially higher than the forward-flow temperature, due to the expansion of fuel. There are other engines, such as some Caterpillars, which have this same type of feature.
 
However, they are not correct when describing how Floscan deals with these types of applications. The only way to accurately register fuel-flow with these types of engines, which use fuel to cool the unit injectors, is by compensating for the temperature difference & expansion of fuel. FloScan does just that, through the usage of our "temperature-compensated" sensors (#235 & #236 models) and systems.
First, each of our flow sensors which are used with these types of engine applications have internal temperature probes.
Second, each of these 'temp-comp' sensors are individually calibrated and matched to a specific FloScan Instrument.
 
FloScan has been building the 'temp-comp' systems for many years, and have been leading the diesel fuel-flow monitoring industry since the systems' conception. These 'temp-comp' systems not only provide believable figures, but accurate ones. None of our company's closest fuel-flow monitoring competitors can currently state that, for the engines which use fuel to cool unit injectors.
 
Anybody who says or writes what was shown on the forum website, regarding our systems' inaccuracies with engines which use fuel to cool injectors, probably had the incorrect FloScan systems/sensors installed for their specific engine applications. Or, possibly, they were just making assumptions based more upon the technical aspects of these engines and less about the actual abilities of FloScan's 'temp-comp' systems.
 
Best Regards,
 
Craig E. Willis
FloScan Service Dept.
(206)524-6625 Ext 309"


Edited by Fantasy on December 19 2006 at 14:36


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Ken27
"Deckhand"




Joined: December 12 2006
Posts: 138
Posted: December 19 2006 at 14:31 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Hi Pete,

That view of the marina shows less than 1/4 of the slips.  To the right, which would be east in this photo, is one more complete harbor.  This is a view of the launch well.  Just past the top of the photo are two large buildings.  The one on the left is our service facility and the one on the right is the main office, harbormaster and General Managers office, along with clubhouse, laundry, showers etc.  The main parking lot is there.  You'll see two large boats under white shrinkwrap and one under blue, that's ours.  Big deal huh?  I bet this is the hightlight of your day.  When you've seen one boat with blue shrinkwrap and blue bottom paint you've seen them all.

Ken

Now that I look at it closer, I believe this photo was taken sometime ago.  The layout of some of the boats is different then it is today and more of the boats, if not all of them have been shrinkwrapped already.  If this was taken a few weeks ago, then ours is still in the service building.  Like I said, big deal huh?

 



Edited by Ken27 on December 19 2006 at 14:37
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Pete37
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Posted: December 19 2006 at 15:35 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi John,

It is encouraging to hear that FloScan temperature and volumn compensates their fuel flow sensors.  I had assumed they did take care of the basic compensations.  Wear and tear compensations, however, are a different matter which Floscan doesn't address in their response.  Temperature compensation is only one small part of the problem.  Diesel fuel is, for example, notorious for its propensity to contaminate and grow algae.

The fact that the Floscans must be calibrated to achieve 2% accuracy is a pretty good indication that they do drift.  It is also unclear in their advertising whether their 2% claim is for gasoline or diesel FloScans.

What we need from FloScan is a statement on the uncalibrated accuracy of their instruments.  By this I mean the instrument accuracy before the user applies his calibrations.  Also, if you have a sufficiently accurate user calibration twiddle knob and are willing to constantly recalibrate an instrument it is obvious that the accuracy can be reduced to 0% error.  So the question becomes "How often does the user have to recalibrate?"

Some of us have been using the term "FloScan" in these posts but I should make it clear that the term "fuel flow meter" should have been used because the problems we have discussed apply to all fuel flow meters.

To be correct, I did not in any of my posts describe how FloScan dealt with the problems of a differencing fuel flow meter.  In fact in my discussion of differencing fuel flow meters I did not even use the word FloScan.  I said that if you had a flow sensor with a basic accuracy of 1% your error in a differencing fuel flow meter designed for the engines used in Connies would be about 10%.  And that's just simple arithmetic.

Mr. Willis of FloScan infers, but does not state, that their basic fuel flow sensors are much better than 1%.  In lieu of any definite statement, I can only remain dubious.  I doubt that FloScan would ever give you the accuracy of their diesel fuel flow meters as they leave the factory.  But in any case it would be meaningless because, if as they state, all meters are calibrated at the factory they can all be calibrated to have zero error. 

 The question is whether the compensations they assume actually work out in real engines and how long those compensations remain realistic in the engine environment.  I am sure that they do their best but in a differencing fuel flow meter high accuracies are difficult to achieve.

Since the questions of calibration accuracy and stability are matters that neither you nor I nor FloScan can answer I think that this thread has gone about as far as it can.

Pete37

 



Edited by Pete37 on December 19 2006 at 15:54


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Ken27
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Posts: 138
Posted: December 20 2006 at 17:29 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Hey folks,

I repaired the ice maker in the wet bar in the aft salon, however I need to replace the door gasket.  The original part is no longer available.  Does anyone know where there might be one on a shelf somewhere or where I can buy the material and fabricate my own?  It's a U-line built by Raritan.

Thanks,

Ken

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Pete37
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Posted: December 20 2006 at 18:19 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Ken,

Try http://fixitnow.com/appliantology/fridgegasket.htm

The article above isn't too good but the guy says he can custom make a gasket.  In any case he may give you some pointers.  Also type  "Refrigerator door gasket" into your search engine.  I got 58 hits on the topic and some looked like they might be pretty good.  My guess is that the refrigerator door gasket material is a standard pattern made by someone other than Raritan.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on December 20 2006 at 18:27


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Ken27
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Posted: December 21 2006 at 14:18 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Pete,

Thanks again, and Merry Christmas.

Ken

Merry Christmas to everyone here.



Edited by Ken27 on December 21 2006 at 14:20
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Pete37
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Posted: December 23 2006 at 13:09 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Guys,

Here is an unusual Connie I saw on the brokers pages:

She appears to be a 46' Connie with an 8' cockpit added to the stern.  She's listed as a 1985 boat, is located in Biloxi, MS and has an asking price of $499,000.  The engines are listed as 525 hp. 6V92s with 100 hours.  These are probably replacements for the original 6V71s which most 460s were delivered with. 

Someone obviously dumped a pile of money into this boat and now after only 100 hours of use wants to get rid of her.  The cockpit add-on seems to have worked out reasonably well.  As far as I know she's the only Chris Craft Constellation 540 in existance.  Her name is "Jeanne" but she's not documented.  Does anyone know anything about her?  Are any of you 460 owners thing of such a modification?  This is probably hull #116 or #120 since all other hulls have been accounted for.

Pete37

 



Edited by Pete37 on December 23 2006 at 14:17


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Ken27
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Posted: December 23 2006 at 13:57 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Pete,

WOW!  That was an expensive add on.  I wonder how it affected the handling, attitude, and performance.

Ken

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Pete37
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Posted: December 23 2006 at 14:33 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Ken,

Part of the cost of this upgrade was the cockpit but the other part was the new engines.  This guy has put a bundle into his mods but I don't think he will get it out.  The two mods which dramatically increase the value of a boat are a new paint job and new engines.  He may have done both but I doubt he will get an additional $300K for his efforts.

We have had several of these cockpit add-ons done on the Chesapeake Bay and in general the maneuverability suffers.  Turning is very slow because the add-on tends to act as a rudder which counteracts the forces of the real rudders. 

In one case a 50' Ocean Yacht had about 12' added to it. The rebuilder apparently realized that the rudders had to be near the stern and remounted the rudders at the back of the add-on.  But he didn't move the props back from their original position.  The result was that the rudders were about 10 feet aft of the props and there was no propwash over the rudders to create turning forces.  The rumor is that this boat is nearly uncontrollable.

Pete37



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Pete37
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Posted: December 23 2006 at 14:43 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

To All:

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all.  This marks the 100th post which is a milestone of sorts.  We now have about five time more posts than any other topic and as soon as the Christmas rush is over I will be sending out letters to owners of 1986 and 1988 Connies telling them of the existance of this site.  That should add some activity to the site. 

I've also noticed that this is my 50th post.  Hope I haven't been too boring.  Fantasy has 21 posts but for some unknown reason his post counter has stopped. Ken27 has 15 posts but for some unknown reason his post counter has also stopped. I don't know whether the fact that these counters have stopped affects our total post count or not.  If it does we may have a lot lore than 100 posts.  As of New Years it will be only 74 days to DWD (DeWinterization Day) March 15, 2007.

January also marks a milestone for my Connie.  She will be 20 years old.  I'm planning a birthday party with some gifts for her.  Next year she will be 21 and eligible to vote.  Don't know whether she is Democrat or Republican but I think she'll lean towards Republican because Republicans are for "Big Oil" and she loves her fuel.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on December 23 2006 at 15:16


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Pete37
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Posted: December 24 2006 at 11:30 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi,

­Q. Most boat owners name their boats.  What is the most popular boat name requested?­


­
A. Obsession­

But as far as I can tell there isn't a single Chris Craft Constellation out of about 110 named "Obsession".

Pete37



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David Ross
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Posted: January 03 2007 at 09:12 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Pete:  I have been following the chat and will add my two cents worth.  I installed gas shock structs on the fly bridge hatch also, but added one to the engine room hatch.

I repair the problematic polybutylene pipe connectors with Rainbow lawn sprinkler barbed "T" and straight connectors.  They are small nonmetal and inexpensive (less than $1).  Just cut the old fitting, heat the poly pipe with a hair dryer and push or pound the new fitting in.  I add a clamp at each conntion to ensure a good seal.  They have never leaked.

I added a 12 volt fresh water pump (Jabsco #36950-2 belt type) as soon as I purchased my boat.  It didn't make sense to run the generator just to use water while under way.  It also acts as a back up for the 110 V pump.  I installed it next to the 110v pump in the genrator room starboard side.  I ran the wires for the breaker to the lower saloon electric box for easy access and it is next to the 110v pump breaker.

At dockside I never use a hose for fresh water, only the 110v pump and water in the tank.  It keeps the on-board water tank clean and fesh and the pump seems to last longer.  Also, it is safer as I don't have to worry about a fitting breaking and water running unchecked in the boat.  I turn off the pump upon leaving for any extened time and turn on the galley faucet to relieve the pressure in the lines.  The old polybutylene connections have never broke since doing this.

Regarding the VDO gauges, they work well for me and are available.  Defender Catalg has them for $40-50 and most marine stores can order them from a specialy catalog.  Three years ago I had all my flybridge gauges, switches and wiring replaced with original items.  I replaced a lower helm oil pressure gauge last June.  Gauges on the Racor filter system are extremely helpful.  I find the 30 micron fuel filters are the best choice along with screw-on primary filters for the 6V92 fuel flow. 

I use two big sponges in the bilge next to the stringer behind each engine beside the shaft.  They absorb the dripping water before it accumulates and drains all the way to the bow bilge area.  Upon returning to the dock, I ring out the sponges and remove any excess bilge water into a bucket.  The engine heat does the rest.  I do not have any water under normal circumstances in any of the bilge areas.  If water appears, I know I have a problem and can trace the source quickly.

I did have a problem with a turbo riser and clamp which I will elaborate on at another time.  Suffice it to say, I agree with you on changing all hoses and risers on any Constellation if they haven't been done yet.  It can be very costly, messy and dangerous if you wait too long.

The upper saloon water leak at the starboard window and aft door leak, in my case, were two different problems.  I'll address these items and other issues later.  I'm already well over my two cents worth.

Dave  1987 Chris Craft 500 "Good Spirits"

 



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David Ross
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Posted: January 03 2007 at 09:35 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Dear Pete:  Just wanted you to know I received your letter and checked out the site - good info!  For a hew years I have been thinkging of testing the waters to see if there was any interest in a chat forum or club for the 500, 501 and 46 series.  Glad I never got around to it as it appears to be in very capable hands.  I agree that owners of the 46' pre chris Craft molds being included could add interest.

I may have seen your boat in 1998.  I had just purchase my 1987 CC500 (serial #167) and brought it to Rudy's Boat Yard at Piney Narrows, MD.  I recall seeing a 500 under a shed next to land with a seriall # only one off mine.  I don't remember the the name.  I heard our boats (if that one was yours) were the last two manufactured as 1987 models, but have never verified this.

What about a rendezvous on the Chesepeake in 2007?

Dave  1987 "Good Spirits"



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Pete37
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Posted: January 03 2007 at 12:59 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Dave,

Yes your boat and mine were the last two Connie 500s built in 1987.  That was the transition year from 500s to 501s and only 15 500s (hulls 153-167) were built.  There were also a whole bunch of 501s built in 1987 but most were 1988 models.  The model year changeover started at the end of March.  The construction of both of our boats was started in January 1987 at the Chris Craft factory in Swansboro, NC. I believe my boat hit the water sometime in June of 1987.

My boat, "Interlude", is at PNYH in slip 2 on B Dock.  From what you say, while you live in NJ you keep your boat on the Chesapeake Bay.  That must be a long hike. 

A rendesvous in 2007 would be nice.  There are probably at a couple dozen 460s, 500s and 501s on the Bay.  There are four at PNYH alone.  I'll make up a list.  The problem is that while I can make up a list of MD owners, a lot of the owners of Connies that dock on the Bay live in other states.

I think we should be very liberal in welcoming anyone with a Chris Craft motoryacht onto the forum.  There isn't anything we can do about it anyway.  The only problem I have is that there are an awful lot of old antique Chris Craft woodies out there and while they are beautiful boats they don't share much in common (from a maintenance and repair standpoint) with the newer fiberglass motoryachts.

The activity on the forum has been very slow during the holidays but now that the holidays are over it may pick up again.  Pop a picture of your yacht onto the forum.  It's good practice in learning how to post pictures and we all like to see other owner's yachts.  While they all came out of the same mold they are all different. 

I just noticed that you have another post on the forum.  I've read it but don't have time to reply right now.  Will share experiences on the topics in your other post this evening.

Glad to have you aboard,

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on January 03 2007 at 13:06


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BVRP
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Posted: January 03 2007 at 14:32 | IP Logged Quote BVRP

GOOD PT - I JOINED THIS FORUM 2 LERN MORE ABOUT MY '94 CC CROWN 322 BUT I HAVE YET 2 C THE 1ST POST FROM ANYONE -
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Pete37
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Posted: January 03 2007 at 20:12 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

To BVRP,

Sorry that you haven't been able to learn anything about your 94 CC Crown 322 on this forum.  This probably isn't the right topic for you but you are welcome to read and/or post as much as you want.  The 94 CC weren't made by Murray CC.  Murray went out of business in 1988.  Probably, the best thing would be for you to set up your own topic and see if you get any responses from other Crown owners.  There are also a lot of CC sites on the web not related to this one which may have other Crown owners. 

Good luck,

Pete37



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Pete37
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Posted: January 03 2007 at 21:30 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Dave,

First, I checked on rendezvous possibilities in 2007.  I looked up the addresses of all Connie 500 owners in the states of MD, DE, NJ & PA.  There are about 10 boats.  Based on the total number of 501s compared to 500s I would expect another 5 501s and perhaps 2 or 3 460s.  That would make a total of 18 boats.  There are also about 5 more boats in VA but I think they would be too far away to attend a northern Chesapeake rendezvous.  Figure that about half of that 18 are up for sale and unlikely to attend.  That leaves about 9 possibilities.  With luck you might get 4 or 5 to attend which while not a mob still makes for a pleasant rendezvous. 

A lot of people seem to have installed those shock struts on the flybridge hatch.  It only has to fall on you once for you to realize how important a shock strut is.  It should have been original equipment.  My engine room hatch isn't hinged so I haven't installed a strut on it.

Everyone seems to have a different way to repair the plumbing system fittings on the fresh water system.  I guess, "If it works, use it."  I got started using the Qest fittings and have been quite satisfied with them.  They go on very easily and I have never had one leak.  The drawbacks are that they are expensive and bulky.  Fortunately most of my problems came shortly after I bought the boat.  The previous owner had used a lot of "Rube Goldberg" plumbing.  Now the system is tight and the pump never cycles unless you use water. 

BTW the original TEEL fresh water pumps installed in the boat are no longer available.  I doubt that parts are available either.  They used to be sold by Grainger but there are similar pumps that can be used to replace the original. Grainger sells a different brand (Dayton) pump as a replacement for $240.

I have a Jabsco PAR pump which I believe is identical to the one you are using and have been planning to install it for several years.  It's a castaway that someone dumped because the pulsation dampers wore out.  It will need a new set of rubber but otherwise seems to work fine. 

Like you, I never use dock water.  I fill the tank and use tank water exclusively. That way the water never gets stale.  It is also safer which is a factor when you have polybutylene plumbing.

VDO makes a whole bunch of different lines of instruments.  The difference is mainly in the decor.  The VDO line installed in most Connies was the "Standard" line which I believe has been discontinued.  However, there are a lot of "Standard" line gauges still around.  The one exception to that is the tachometer which is nearly impossible to get.  There is, however, a place in Ft. Lauderdale that claims they can repair them.  Where did you install your Racor filter gauges?

I'm amazed that you have a dry bilge.  I always have water sloshing around in the engine pans and bilges.  In general, I have found that if you are going to have water in your bilges it's best to have a little water running from your stuffing boxes.  That way the bilge water gets pumped out frequently and doesn't stink up the place.  But if I could eliminate the water entirely that would be an even better solution.  I don't think there are any leaks in my boat other than the engine and rudder shaft stuffing boxes.  And the rudder shaft stuffing boxes seem pretty tight.  So that leaves the engine shafts as the only source of water.

My boat is kept in a covered shed so I don't have problems with leaks.  I guess if it was kept outside I might.  But when we have gone on trips away from our covered slip, I don't remember any problems with leaks.

My air conditioner water pump has something wrong with it.  The rotor seems to be rubbing against the casing and it is making a very annoying scream (in the summer that is).  It hasn't broken down though.   Has anyone replaced their air conditioner pump?

The weather has been pretty warm so far this winter but still has been too cold to do painting and varnishing.  I hate winter!  I hate painting and varnishing too but at least if I have to do it I would like to do it at a time when I can't use the boat.  Only 70 days now to DWD (DeWinterization Day, March 15th) and I'll be in Florida for 42 of those days so I guess I'll make it.

Stay warm,

Pete37

 



Edited by Pete37 on January 03 2007 at 21:37


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Furman1
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Posted: January 04 2007 at 06:29 | IP Logged Quote Furman1

The window leaks on the upper salon can be corrected by putting a water diverter on the roof just above each of the side windows and directing the rain water away from running down the window. I made my diverters out of 3/4 corian (starboard will work also) about 2 inches high and about 1 ft longer than the window on each end and glued them to the roof. This greatly reduces the amount of water that would normally run down the window.

I also had a problem with water collecting on the flybridge in the corners of the upper helm. I corrected this by taking a piece of 1 1/2 pvc and splitting it in half. I then cut a half round hole in each corner of the helm and on the outside of the helm to slide the pvc thru. After caulking all the edges to make a water tight half round tunnel for the water to escape, I no longer have water standing on the roof or seeping under the flybridge.

If you have a problem with these items I hope this helps.



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Posted: January 04 2007 at 10:06 | IP Logged Quote Furman1

Pete,

I replaced my AC pump with one from Grainger. It's a stainless steel pump that is a lot less expensive that the one on the boat (about half). Since it has stainless pump and impeller it seems to last longer that the bronze one that came with the boat. It's head is a little smaller but seems to work fine. It's part number is 4TA74 but there are several that would work. It's a little noiser but since it's in the engine room I can't hear it. I repaired my expensive pump and keep it as a back up.

BTW I have 2 of the orginal tachs, if anyone is interested. I added flowscan and don't need them. They have the little blue emblem at the bottom.



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Pete37
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Posted: January 04 2007 at 10:10 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Dave & Furman,

On 1987 Connies there is already a water diverter on the edge of the bridge which diverts water from running down the side of the boat.  However, it doesn't seem to work perfectly.  When I hose down the bridge the water drips over the side a few feet forward of the the side door.  But none drips down over the side windows of the upper salon.

Correction on the number of Connies at PNYH.  We have 2 460s (one in the yard and one in the water), 1 500 (mine) and three 501s for a total of 6.  That's my best recollection.  One of the 460s is in brokerage and the other is owned by a lawyer who seems a bit secretive.  One of the 501s is for sale.  The other two 501s rarely leave their slips.  One because the owner is old and the other because the owner is young and busy making a living.  We have a lot of covered slips at PNYH and therefore a lot of large motoryachts tend to congregate here.

There is your boat, somewhere on the northern Bay, John's boat which summers on the Sassafras but is presently in Florida, one 1985 500 at the Baltimore Yacht Club, one 460 on brokerage in Annapolis, a 501 on brokerage in DC, a 500 in Northeast, MD on brokerage,  a 1985 500 docked on Kent Narrows and a 500 on brokerage at Great Oak.  Thats a total of 13 that I have personal knowledge of and there are probably some more that I don't know about.  Out of that 13 seven are on brokerage which is about typical for Connies.

Just out of curiousity I made a spot check of the ages of Connie 500 owners.  The average age was 62 years but there was a wide range running from 39 to 78 years.  The bulk of the owners were between 50 and 78 with about an equal number in the 50s, 60s and 70s.  Based on the high number of Connies on brokerage owned by owners in their upper 70s it seems that a lot of Connies come on the market because the owner is too old to continue boating.  Connies are "Last Boats" for a lot of owners.  I bought my Connie at an age of 57 and it will probably be my "Last Boat".

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on January 04 2007 at 11:44


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David Ross
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Posted: January 04 2007 at 18:59 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Pete: I keep my boat on the Sassafras and it normally takes less about 90 minutes from my house to the boat. 

My RAcor gauges are on the cannisters.  You just replace the "T" handle with them.  Helm gauges would be nice, but a more involved installation, and I do frequent engine room checks anyway.

Regarding your wet bilges:  the rudder packing nuts are hard to get to as they are under the bottom drawer in the master stateroom beside drawers.  The whole front assemby comes out with a few screws to make it easier.  The rudder leak/drip will drain through concealed stringers and ends up in the bow bilge under the forward stateroom.  The engine shaft drips will run to the bilge pump forward of the batteries.  Underway the water from both drips will end up all over.  I don't understand having water under the engines.  This area should be encased with solid stringers without drain holes.  My engine area is completely dry.  I put down 3M large absorbant towels to catch any oil, fuel or water drips that would indicate a problem.  This helps to trouble shoot the drips by color and location.

I agree this forum should have emphasis strictly on figerglass Constellations for the reasons you mentioned.  In my previous comments about pre-Chris Craft molds, I was referring to the 46' Pacemaker and Uniflite sinice they have similar maintenance issues.  I am very familiar with the earlier wooden Chris Craft boats you mentioned because I owned a 1965 57' Constellation.  In fact when I brought my boat to PNYB in 1998 my old boat was there and a new owner was taking possession.

Dave  "Good Spirits"

 



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Pete37
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Posted: January 04 2007 at 19:49 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Dave,

The way my boat is configured the engine shaft stuffing boxes drip onto the low stringer that is at the aft end of the bilge compartment under the engine.  That compartent is totally enclosed by stringers so there shouldn't be any water under the engines.  But about half of the water which hits the stringer goes forward and the other half aft.  The part that goes forward fills the bilge compartment under the engine.  I have been thinking of putting a deflector under the shaft to divert all of the drip aft.  But like many other projects it hasn't been done yet.  It doesn't even have an "A" priority yet.

I have worked on the rudder shafts for a number of reasons.  One reason is to check that the bolts holding the rudder shaft bearing haven't loosened.  That should be done whenever your out of water inspection during hauling shows any looseness in the rudders.  Those bolts are hard to get at and tighten.  So I'm pretty sure that there isn't much leakage around the rudder shafts. 

Anything which leaks into the bilge winds up at the bilge pump under the galley unless it's picked up by a bilge pump first because that's the lowest part of the bilge.  Theoretically you would think that the bulkheads would stop the fore and aft flow but they don't.  There's always a small hole somewhere.  Most of the engine room water does wind up at the bilge pump at the forward end of the engine room but there are always two puddles under the engines.

I could install two small bilge pumps to pump the under engine compartments out I suppose but again it hasn't reached an "A" priority.  I could also tighten the stuffing boxes but that would just slow the process.  The under engine compartements would still fill.  In a way the water under the engines keeps the boat cleaner because any oil spilled from the engines floats on top of the water and is soaked up by the oil absorbant pads floating in the under engine pools. 

I hope that this topic concentrates on Murray and pre-Murray fiberglass motoryachts but there isn't much we can do to enforce it.  Perhaps the fact that most of us are talking about Murray motoryachts will encourage owners of other boats to go to one of the sites that specializes on their type of boat. 

The Pacemaker and Uniflite 460s are of course nearly identical to the CC 460s so they are certainly welcome on this forum.  There are even a couple of 50' Uniflites that were the predecessors to the CC 500s.  While we are at it I should mention the other Constellation; the Constellation 410.  This 41' Constellation was only built in 1987 and I have only been able to locate two.  The total production was probably less than 5.  So far we haven't heard from any 410 owners. 

If you keep your boat on the Sassafras you should know John who keeps his Connie "Fantasy" in a covered slip at the marina on the north side of the river next to the bridge during the summer.  He has been on this forum but is exploring Florida right now.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on January 04 2007 at 20:24


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David Ross
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Posted: January 05 2007 at 19:19 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Reply to Pete and info for all: 

Yes Pete, John from Fantasy and I are friendly - we are on the same dock during the summer and belong to the same yacht club - Georgetown.

As mentioned earlier, I also had the water leaks under the upper saloon starboard window and aft deck door.  I used 1/2 round brown rubber gasket tape from Home Depot.  I installed it under the bottom of the door and around the door frame.  Air and water leaks were eliminated and the flow of fumes and soot.

The boat is kept under a covered shed so the window leak was not apparent.  Then I discovered damp carpeting and damp panelling which was soft and detoriating.  I cut the panelling about 2 1/2" from the floor and installed a trim piece stained to match the panelling which makes it not noticable.  I can dry everything out and observe and standing water by removing a few invisible screws.  I never saw any water dripping, but could see water running along the floor behind the panelling running forward to aft.  It appeared not to be coming from the window, but forward.

Recently I sealed some flybridge seams and stantion mounts.  I also found some gaps along the starboard hull side support small window frame.  I used clear caulk around the black rubber gasket and white caulk along the gel coat.  The leak appears to have stopped - not sure what worked or if it still a problem.  Next boating will tell.

As a precaution I pulled back the carpet from the wall and put down clear vinyl sheeting 18" from the wall and pushed it under and up the inside panelling a couple of inches to keep the water from wicking into the padding and carpet in case it leaks again.

Dave   "Good Spirits"

 



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Ken27
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Posted: January 05 2007 at 21:50 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Pete,

Do you have a picture that you could post, of the 410 Constellation?  I've never seen one.  And, where did this mold, or original design come from?  Is it a CC?

Thanks,

Ken

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Pete37
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Posted: January 07 2007 at 13:20 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Ken27,

Here's a picture of the Constellation 410 I got from the 1987 Chris Craft "The Great American Fleet" catalog.

She's a pretty nice boat.  Length was 41', beam 14', weight 26,000 to 29,000 lbs. (depending on engines) and draft was 3'3".  Standard engines were twin 300 hp 4-71TI diesels or twin 350 hp gasoline engines.  But as far as I can tell only about 5 were built.

The hull is definitely that of the 41' Chris Craft Commander with a length (41') and beam (14') identical to the Constellation 410.  Even the interior layout is nearly identical.   The Commander 410 was dropped in 1986 and reappeared in 1987 as a Constellation 410.   She probably didn't sell well because Chris Craft was also offering a 42' motoryacht in the Commander series.

The Commander 410 had been a very successful boat with a 15 year production run but hadn't done well since 1980.  This was apparently a last gasp attempt to rejuvenate the venerable 410 by giving it a cosmetic rework and a new name associated with larger yachts.  But the only major cosmetic change was the removal of the classic trademark CC wide blue gunnel stripe.  No Murray Chris Craft Constellation has ever had a wide blue gunnel stripe.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on January 07 2007 at 14:28


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Ken27
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Posted: January 07 2007 at 15:05 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Pete,

This makes more sense to me.  When you said a hand full of 41 Connies were built, I was imagining a whole different boat.  I'm very familiar with the 410 Commanders.  We have a bunch of them in my area.  A good friend has owned an '85 since it was new.  A few years ago, my wife and I almost bought a real clean and low hours '86, but went a different direction in the end.

Thanks again,

Ken

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Pete37
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Posted: January 07 2007 at 15:28 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Dave,

It is interesting that both you and John have window leaks on the starboard but not port side.  I think that the reason is that most Connies list slightly (about 1 degree) to port.  That's why water tends to puddle on the starboard deck.  The puddling should be corrected because if any leaks exist in the cored decks water may intrude and cause severe damage.  There is also the nuisance of having to constantly walk through the puddles.

I corrected the puddling problem by trimming out the list with about 100' of old anchor chain stored on the starboard side.  Furman1 eliminated it by drilling holes in the toerail.  Both ways work but what you and John are telling me is that there is a third reason to trim out the list.

With the typical 1 degree to port list, water which leaks out of the windows into the space between the outboard fiberglass wall and the inboard wooden trim wall falls on the outboard wall and runs down the wall to the floor.  The floor has some camber and this plus the list causes the water to run along the outboard wall until it finds a place to exit.  The fiberglass is not damaged by water.

But on the starboard side of the boat the list causes the water from the window to fall on the inboard wooden wall and/or floor.  Once on the floor, the list overpowers the floor camber and causes the water to run along the inner wooden wall until it finds some place to leak out.  And once under the wooden wall it encounters the rugs which trap and hold the water.  That's why you have wet rugs and rotten wooden walls on the starboard side but not port side.  If you trim your boat to zero list, the camber of the floor should force the water to follow the fiberglass walls on both the port and starboard sides.

Finding and stopping the leaks is of course also an important thing to do.

The reason for the list to port is primarily the weight of the 800 lb. generator which is centered about 2' to port of the keel.  Nearly all Connies I have seen have this slight, almost unnoticeable, 1 degree list to port.  I have tested the list and find that about 150 lbs of weight added near the starboard gunnel will eliminate the list.  It should be about the same on other Connies.  Steel or lead is the most compact material to use for ballast.  Gold and spent uranium are of course even more effective but are either too expensive or too hazardous.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on January 07 2007 at 15:45


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Fantasy
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Posted: January 09 2007 at 14:51 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

I haven't had anything to contribute here for a while but I'd like to point out that my boat lists to starboard, not port.  Apparently, the washer/dryer, hot water tank, pumps, refrigerator and stove are more than enough to offset my 15kw generator's weight.  Or maybe it's the liquor cabinet, I don't know.

In spite of the starboard list, water can be found on the starboard side salon floor after a heavy rain.  There is no evidence of water around the sliding window frame.  The inboard rail of the frame is about two inches higher than the outboard rail (which is slotted for drainage) and the corners appear to be welded.  I've removed the 110v wall outlet to check for tracks and see none on the interior walls.

The only thing different between port (which is dry) and starboard is the rear door and a couple vertical SS handrails which I'm watching.



Edited by Fantasy on January 09 2007 at 17:23


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Posted: January 09 2007 at 18:11 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Fantasy,

I have to admit that I don't know why most Connies list to port.  They just do.  In thinking about the items which are non-symmetrical and might cause a list the generator is the heaviest and most obvious source of imbalance.  It weighs about 800 lbs and its center of gravity is about 3 feet to port of the keel.  It is true, however as you point out that the galley appliances may offset some of the generators weight.

But I've been looking at pictures of Connies for a long time and most do list slightly to port.  In order to tell for sure you have to have a clear view from dead astern and most brokers don't like to publish pictures of the stern because it gives away the name of the boat.  But out of the 40 or so Connies now on the market the brokers have shown clear stern views of two and both are listing to port.  And I have pictures of my boat which shows it also lists to port by about the same amount.  Thats three all listing to port and I've never seen one list to starboard.  But you may have a very heavy liquor cabinet.

I've done some inclination tests and 200 lbs on the starboard gunnel (8 feet horizontally removed from the boats centerline will incline the boat about 1.0 degree.  That's (200 x 8)/1.0 = 1,600 ft lbs/degree which makes her a pretty stiff boat.  Now if the 800 lb. generator, its 70 lb hush cover, 30 lb muffler and its 100 lb starting battery (total weight 1000 lbs) has its center of mass 3.5 feet horizontally removed from the center line of the boat the inclining moment is 3,500 ft. lbs. which should tilt the boat by 3,500/1,600 = 2.18 degrees.  This is much larger than the actual list.

Now take a 200 lb refrigerator 4 feet displaced, a 200 lb. water heater 3 feet displaced, a 100 lb washer/dryer 3 feet displaced and a 100 lb dishwasher 4 feet displaced and you have a total moment in the other direction of  [(200 x 4) + (200 x 3) + (100 x 3)  +(100 x 4)] = 2,100 ft lbs.  So the net list should be (3,500-2100)/1,600 = 0.88 degrees which is pretty close to what it actually is.  So blaming the list on the generator is not so outlandish.

Some time ago, I mentioned that I had seen several 460s with canvas covers over the rear doors.  Here is a picture of one of them:

I dont think that black is a good color selection.  It makes the problem stand out. I've seen them in white and they are much less obtrusive.  Unfortunately I can't tell you whether it works.  The owner is a lawyer and cherishes his privacy.  He only stores the boat here for the winter, shows up one day in the spring and takes it somewhere else.

One thing I think you could do to isolate the cause of the leak problem is to wait for a day you know you are going to have a downpour.  Before it starts raining cover the door with plastic sheeting and seal the sheeting to the boat with duct tape.  If there is still water on the floor after the downpour it didnt come in through the door.  If the floor is dry then the problem was the door.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on January 09 2007 at 22:57


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