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bfool
"Seaman Recruit"




Joined: November 14 2007
Posts: 2
Posted: November 15 2007 at 11:54 | IP Logged Quote bfool

Mark, Vicki and Tony, thanks for the warm welcome.

The paint color is Imron 555. It is a 4 step process. Entire boat is 2 part epoxy primer. Next step, paint entire boat and all accesories,wet sand and buff to glass finish. We removed all parts, trim pieces (except windows and frames) as opposed to masking off. This is the problem with changing the color, everything has to be preped and painted such as wet bar, doors, davits, panels and boards. Approximate cost for turn key job with you doing no work - $70k. I can give more details if anyones interested.

In regard to myself owning a conni, I owned a Marks CC for 8 years which is how long it took to renovate inside and out. Before the 50 conni I had a 410 cc Commander for 10 years. I also spent 8 years for total renovation on the Commander. I wish I knew about this forum when I had the 50 footer. Its great

 



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David Ross
"Navigator"




Joined: January 02 2007
Posts: 452
Posted: November 15 2007 at 16:40 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Pete,

Thanks for the info on the history and owners. One article I read had Johnny Carson's boat named "Serendipty" which is why I thought that was the name, but it probably was "Serengeti" as you stated.

Dave



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DAVE
GOOD SPIRITS
500 CONSTELLATION (1987)
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Ken27
"Deckhand"




Joined: December 12 2006
Posts: 138
Posted: November 15 2007 at 17:27 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Baysalor or anyone,

I'm still trying to find the original TV antenna parts.  I'm in need of one or more of the coax/controller wall outlets and the controllers.  The original Antennacraft company is out of business, the new is not making the old style anymore, and I can't find any in anyone's left over inventory.  If anyone has any of these sitting on the shelf in the garage, basement or whatever, and would want to sell them, please let me know.  This is one of the last minor details in our restoration project.  At anchor or whatever, the antenna is useful somewhat, especially when the grandkids are on board, and bored.

Baysalor, I've tried leaving you a voice-mail and sent an e-mail, but you must either be very busy, or didn't receive them.

In case I don't have any other posts in the near future, we want to wish all our friends here on the forum a very safe and happy holliday season.

Ken

P.S.  Pete, I haven't seen anymore details on your get together.  Is it still on?



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"The Good Life"
'85 500, Home port Nashville, TN,
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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 16 2007 at 01:21 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Ken,

So far only one couple has definitely said they would come.  If we don't get anyone else interested we'll probably put off any further get togethers until mid January.  The holiday season is just too hectic.

Pete37



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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 16 2007 at 01:27 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Bfool,

I get the message.  You just own a boat until you've made it perfect.  After that it's no challenge and you sell it. 

Pete37



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Banjoman
"First Mate"




Joined: July 02 2007
Posts: 553
Posted: November 16 2007 at 08:50 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

Pete - I had an uncle that refurbed, rehabed, remodeled, everything from old cars, to boats, to motorcycles and a few houses in between.  He would build go-karts from scratch, including the frames, built a marina damn-near single-handed.  Totally restored several old wooden boats.  And all this in one life time.  He fell off a ladder at age 71 while remodeling a small beach house he bought (supposedly to retire in, but we knew better). The fall broke his neck and death was instant, so he didn't suffer.   Anyway, once his project of the moment was complete, they didn't stay around long.  And no, he didn't give a hoot about the money!  He would simply lose interest once completed and someone would come by and say that they would love to own whatever it was and he'd say "make me an offer" and we'll talk.  He usually accepted the offer and moved on to the next project.  He was never "well-off" and gave a lot of money and time to good local causes.  He was loved by many and 100's showed up at his funeral.

__________________
Capt. G. Emory Shover
m/v "SOUTHERN CHARM"
Eastern Marine Services, LLC
Marine Survey - Yacht Delivery
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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 16 2007 at 09:59 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Emory,

Do you think Bfool might be a distant relative of your uncle?

Pete37



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Banjoman
"First Mate"




Joined: July 02 2007
Posts: 553
Posted: November 16 2007 at 10:36 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

I dunno', is he from North Carolina?  Ha!

__________________
Capt. G. Emory Shover
m/v "SOUTHERN CHARM"
Eastern Marine Services, LLC
Marine Survey - Yacht Delivery
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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 17 2007 at 14:21 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Guys,

Diesel is up to $3.43 per gallon at my marina (Piney Narrows Yacht Haven) and is only a cent below gas.  Last time I filled up it (September 23rd) it was $2.90 per gallon.  And last year at this time (November 28, 2006) it was only $2.29 per gallon.

But the marina manager says that he got a new load in today and it will be down to only $3.38 by Monday.  My that's a bargain!  I'll have to rush over and fill up.  He blames the rise on the onset of the home heating fuel season.

Last year I used 960 gallons in 64 engine hours or about 15 gph.  This year I've only put 54 engine hours on the boat at about 12 gph so I think I'll probably wind up with a total usage of 648 gallons.

But I've slowed the boat down about as much as I can so there aren't any economies to be made there and I don't want to use the boat less.  One of my plans for next year is to try to make two day trips rather than one day trips.  Leave the first day, stop at a marina and return the next day.  Or simply anchor out for the evening and come back the next day.  We've got a small runabout that we can play with to pass the time. 

The name of the game seems to be to houseboat more and cruise less.  Fortunately our Connies are ideally suited to houseboating.

I plan plan on still doing 60 hours a year at about 12 gph next year so we'll burn about 720 gallons.  And at about $4.00 per gallon (my guess for next year) it will cost us about $2,880.  That's not too bad when you consider the overall costs of owning a 50' yacht.

But fuel costs are definitely cutting into my boating plans and fuel sales at marinas have dropped appreciably which indicates that fuel costs have definitely cut into boat usage of others as well.

What are you guys doing to survive the rise in fuel costs?

Pete37 



Edited by Pete37 on November 17 2007 at 14:25


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Delaware Jim
"Navigator"




Joined: December 27 2006
Posts: 381
Posted: November 17 2007 at 14:51 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Pete,

While fuel has gotten MUCH more expensive, I think the spike will be down by spring somewhat (25-35 cents a gallon less).  I like your idea of two day vesus one day trips and doing an overnight on the hook.  I also agree with you there are not a lot of "free lunch" tricks to reduce fuel use below what we're all doing.

On another matter, I found today the aft cabin AC/heater has a bad compressor (discharge pressure same as suction side).  I now know what I'm getting for Christmas.  It is a really tight fit under the office desk and will be a b_T_h to get the old one out and a new one in.  I'll start shopping soon.  Anyone know where i can get a 16k reversable unit at a reasonable price?

Delaware Jim



Edited by Delaware Jim on November 18 2007 at 09:16


__________________
"Still In the Mood"
1985 Chris Craft 500 Constellation
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Furman1
"Deckhand"




Joined: November 27 2006
Posts: 227
Posted: November 17 2007 at 15:16 | IP Logged Quote Furman1

I've had booths at both the IBEX and Ft. Lauderdale show recently.  At the IBEX show (boat manufactures primarely) there was a company that is doing a lot with electric moters for boats. If my engines ever go south is am considering going with electric motors instead.  The company I talked with (can't remember their name) said that with a generator that had the ability to generate 240 volts you could put an electric motor in place of each engine and produce 200 to 300 hp going through a transmission to the exiting shafts.  I don't think that our 20kw generaters would do the job but they might be  good backup power or maybe a 20kw for each electric motor.  We wouldn't be planning anymore but maybe a fuel effecent boat.  And just think of the extra room in the engine room.

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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 17 2007 at 15:16 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Delaware Jim,

Hire a marine A/C man and he'll either repair your compressor or put a new one in.  They don't work cheap but it's a lot cheaper than replacing your whole A/C unit.  Our local guy at PNYH is named Casey and seems to do a pretty good job.  I can get his number if you want it.  At this time of year he's probably not very busy.

If you really want to replace, your unit is probably a Marine Air unit and they have distributors all over the place.  Get the model and serial number and call them.  They probably have an exact replacement. It'll cost you big $$$ though.

Pete37



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A Murray Chris Craft Constellation 500
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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 17 2007 at 15:54 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Furman,

Diesel/electric setups have been around for a long time (since the 1930s).  They are very popular in locomotives where one part of the route has electric service but another doesn't.  They are fairly efficient but don't expect any improvement in fuel economy.

One horsepower equals 0.7457 kilowatts so you would need a 410 kilowatt electric motor to drive each prop.  And of course the motor efficiency while high probably won't exceed 85% so you would need a 647 hp diesel to produce the same propeller hp as your present 550 hp diesel.  Your fuel consumption would jump by at least 15% to compensate for the electric motor inefficiency.

Your 20 KW generator would produce about 27 hp which would be 13.5 hp per prop (assuming 100% efficiency).  This would be about enough to drive your boat at about 4 knots (if your lucky).

I saw an article recently on diesel electric propulsion systems for pleasure boats but I don't expect them to go anywhere because of their expense and low efficiency.  They do have some niche applications however where they are practical. 

Now if you could just figure out how to run your boat on a long underwater extension cord an electric system would be great.  Or perhaps huge banks of batteries like a submarine.

Pete37



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Furman1
"Deckhand"




Joined: November 27 2006
Posts: 227
Posted: November 17 2007 at 16:42 | IP Logged Quote Furman1

I wasn't trying to get 550 hp if 200 to 300 hp is achieveable that would be great. There have been and continue to be great improvements in your figures.

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Furman
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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 17 2007 at 17:10 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Furman,

There isn't much you can do to improve electric motors.  They are already 85% efficient and the best you can do is 100%.  That leaves a maximum possible improvement of 15%.

You can get any amount of power you want from a diesel electric system.  It's just a matter of sizing the equipment.  But no matter what you do you can't get any more power out of a diesel electric system than you would out of a straight diesel system.  That's just a matter of conservation of energy.   And in most cases you loose 10 to 20% of the diesel power in a diesel electric system.

Diesel electric systems are old technology.  They work and have good applications but they aren't efficient and are very expensive compared to a straight diesel system of equal size.  You have to pay for the diesel engine plus a very expensive generator and a very expensive electric motor.

Pete37



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A Murray Chris Craft Constellation 500
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Furman1
"Deckhand"




Joined: November 27 2006
Posts: 227
Posted: November 17 2007 at 17:28 | IP Logged Quote Furman1

Actually all you would have the electric motors and a generator.  With the price of fuel a lot of new tech. is on the horizon. I'm not saying that the answer is here right now but no one would believe that a solar powered trawler was possible a few years back...one company sells them now.



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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 17 2007 at 23:59 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Furman,

I'm not saying it can't be done it has been done thousands of times.  But what is your generator?  It is an electric motor attached to a diesel engine.  The diesel turns the motor and converts the mechanical energy into electrical energy which is then sent by wire to a second motor which converts the electrical energy back into mechanical energy (the rotation of the shaft) which is attached to the same transmission that your present diesel engine is attached to. 

Neither the first nor the second electric motor create any power.  They just transform the energy from one form to another (mechanical to electrical and vice versa).  If the conversions were 100 % efficient then you would have the equivalent of a solid shaft connecting the diesel to the transmission.  Except, of course that the two motors would be far more expensive than a solid shaft and much less efficient since each motor would have an efficiency of less than 90% for a net efficiency of less than 80%.  So you've lost 20% of the power and wasted a lot of money on some unnecessary motors.

If you want to be more efficient you have to find an engine more efficient than the present diesel engines.  Lots of luck.  A lot of people have been trying for over 100 years but no one has found anything which is significantly less than 0.055 gallons (of diesel fuel) per brake horsepower hour (4 cycle diesels).  And there are basic physical reasons why a diesel will never improve on that.  Interestingly our old two cycle 6V92s use 0.057 gallons per brake horsepower hour which is pretty close to the best that a four cycle diesel can do.  There may be better ways to create power but they won't utilize diesel engines.

However, if youwant to save fuel, just yank out your present 6V92s and replace them with a couple of 80 hp Ford Lehmans or something similar.  This will allow you to go slower without running your engines below their minimum safe running temperature and as you know the slower you go the less fuel you use.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on November 18 2007 at 00:06


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A Murray Chris Craft Constellation 500
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TStellato
"Deckhand"




Joined: August 12 2007
Posts: 206
Posted: November 18 2007 at 03:01 | IP Logged Quote TStellato


We just replaced the unit in the lower salon.  We ended up getting some off the unit from the boat show.  The guy George from Total Boat Works was working the booth and came right over to look at the units.   He is a dealer for Cruiseair.  Works for $65/hr.  We replaced the 16 with an 18 unit was $2500 i think.  plus labor. If you can wait until the FL boat shows, he may be able to get the show pricing.  his number is 410-287-1478.  He said that he also refurbishes units and then sells them cheap. He has a 55 Chris Commander so is familiar with the boats.

Pete,  We just heard from my daughter and she is coming into town a week early so unfortunately we will not be able to make the gathering.

Also need to ask how to winterize the bow wash down spigot without winterizing the whole forward head area.


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Tony and Vicki
FIVE STAR
1985 Constellation
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PAUL NJ
"Seaman Recruit"




Joined: November 09 2007
Posts: 7
Posted: November 18 2007 at 09:15 | IP Logged Quote PAUL  NJ

Do "ALL"  501's  with either sliders or a door from the salon have room on the aft  deck to comfortably put two chairs  compared to the 500's which to not have enough room ? We looked at 4 boats this past Friday and SAT -3  500's  and 1  501 and only the 501 had room for the chairs. BTW--the 501 was RESOLUTE which seems to be a very  nice boat--owned by a very knowledgeable boater.

 



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A 500 OR 501 WILL BE MINE
SOMEDAY!
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Capt.Wayne
"Seaman"




Joined: October 31 2007
Posts: 63
Posted: November 18 2007 at 10:50 | IP Logged Quote Capt.Wayne

Hi Delaware Jim

Regarding your A/C problem I may have some input here. I've had a lot of experience reparieing the A/C unites on my 460 connie, the latest was replacing the Controler unit. it was blowing the breaker when the start switch was turned on.

The Lower State Room compressor failed, I removed the entire unit, (reconnected the see water cooling hoses together with a double barb connector, so I could continue to use the other units while repairing the faulty unit.

With the unit out of the boat you can take it to any A/C mechanic to have the compressor replaced, and recharged. I bought my Tacumsa compressor from an A/C parts dealer for $340.00 and paid $100 to a mechanic to replace and recharge the unit. Much Cheaper than $2500 plus.

You can contact Marine Air Systems in Pampano Beach Fl on 954-913-2477 and talk to there support group, they are pretty good about helping with problems with their product, but they don't sell anything except through their suppliers. You can buy compressors anywhere

Hope this helps,

Capt Wayne   



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Non-Marrital Asset
460 Connie
Isle of Capri, FL
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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 18 2007 at 12:17 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Paul,

One of the limitations of the 500 is that the aft deck isn't of much use other than as a platform from which to handle lines.  There were five 500s built in early 1988 which had double sliding doors centered on the aft wall of the upper salon.  But I don't think the aft deck was any wider. 

Interestingly when Jefferson built their Marquessa (which appears to be a copy of the Connie 500) they added another 2 feet to make the length 52'.  The extra space was used to widen the aft deck.  Unfortunately they put in small engines which give it a max speed of only 14 knots and a cruising speed of about 12 knots.  It is basically a high speed trawler. That isn't necessarily bad in today's high fuel cost situation.   Jefferson's Monticello  appears to be a copy of the Connie 501 and uses 550 hp 6V92s to make it a full cruisng motoryacht.

"Resolute" was the first 501 built and has been well maintained.  But later 501s may have improvements not on "Resolute".  I don't know what they are but there probably were improvements.  If you have decided you want a 501 it would be wise to look at a few of the later 501s before settling on "Resolute".

I know all the other 500s you saw and they are all good boats but I think that if I were choosing I would select the one with the recently overhauled engines (all other things being equal).

Pete37



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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 18 2007 at 12:52 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Jim.

Looks like replacing the compressor for $440 is a lot cheaper than $2,500 for buying a new unit.  And the compressor is really the only major component which breaks down.  The compressors are new units not overhauls. 

I replaced a compressor about 20 years ago on an Ocean Yacht that I had at the time and had no trouble with it.  The prices were cheaper then though.  I think the compressor was only a little over $200 and the A/C man worked for $40 per hour.

An update on the December 1 potluck dinner.  You are the only couple that can make it so I think we will have to call the party off.  But if you want to meet for dinner somewhere we would be glad to see you, the Admiral and perhaps your boat.  We'll try to set up a party again in mid January when the holiday season madness is over. 

Pete37



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David Ross
"Navigator"




Joined: January 02 2007
Posts: 452
Posted: November 18 2007 at 14:00 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

To all on fuel price....

I changed filters and fluids and winterized the engines and generator last week. I topped off the tanks at Skip Jack Marina on the Sassafras. There price was $4.00 a gallon!!!!!! That includes state tax and they give a 10% discount on over 300 gallons bringing the price down (?) to $3.60. I took on 391 gallons, you do the math. To add insult to injury, when I got home I saw an ad for a five day vacaction to London, England including air flight for a little less then I paid to top off.

The dock hand didn't even wear a bandit's mask. Their price was over a dollar less when I took on fuel for the Labor Day cruise. I was told they just got in the new low sulphur diesel and that was why the price increased. Does any one know if the cost to make low sulphur fuel is that much more? Also what are the pro's and con's of the low sulphur fuel?  Will I have less or more transom soot?  Another issue, diesel fuel always sold for much less than gas. I always heard it was a lot cheaper to manufacture. What happened to cause this change over the last couple years? Anyone have any answers or comments....

Fuel on the Sassfras was only a little more than the Baltimore /Annapolis area a few years or so ago. Then the three local fuel docks prices started to rise at a much faster rate than Baltimore/Annapolis area. Almost sounds like collusion. For the last couple years the three fuel dock's prices take a spike in October, just in time for the top off winter season. Almost sounds like collusion. I hope they shoot themselves in the foot, as they are primarily serving the local boaters for and near their marina's.



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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: November 18 2007 at 15:53 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Dave,

Whatcha bitchin about!  I have to fill my tanks and the fuel here at Kent Island is $4.38 per gallon (marked down from $4.43 yesterday).  I don't think that low sulphur fuel is the problem.  It's only a couple cents more per gallon at most.  The problem is that everyone in New England and elsewhere is filling up his home heating oil tank for the winter.  And home heating oil is nearly identical to marine diesel fuel. 

Next year make sure you fill your tanks in September before the home heating oil rush begins.  You can then top them off in November if you want.  Now that I've told you that I have to admit that I got lazy and didn't take my own advice. 

So it's going to cost me.CryCryCryCryCryCry There, I've got a whole chorus line of Boo Hoos.

Driving has slowed down for the winter but home heating oil is booming.  So the price of gas drops (but not much) and the price of diesel goes up (plenty).  In May gas will go up and diesel will go down (assuming the per barrel price hasn't gone up any more).

Low sulphur fuel isn't going to change the soot problem.  And there's nothing you can do about it except to put in an additive to compensate for the loss of the lubricative value of the sulphur.  Diesel fuel is blended for road use and the amount that boats use is so minor that no one is going to blend high sulpur diesel for boats.

I picked up an article on the web that's interesting.  An excerpt from it is printed below:

From the Boston Globe, by Kathleene McKenna, July 19, 2007

Tim Moll, yard manager of Brewer Plymouth Marine in Plymouth, said that fuel sales dropped at least 20 percent last year when gas prices first rose toward $4 a gallon. This year, he said, they have rebounded a bit, but not much.

"People are definitely not going out as much," Moll said. "They're staying stationary and using their boats as summer cottages."

Mark Baz of Plymouth, who operates charter fishing boats and renovates boats, said the high price of gas is having a "definite impact" on the industry. Even the owners of $2 million yachts, who used to pay Baz to transport the boats up and down the coast each year, are cutting back, thanks to the trip's $20,000 fuel cost.

There are "more people sitting at the marina, partying, cooking out, and socializing with their neighbors on the dock," said John Perette, owner of Pirates Cove Marina in Hingham, and that's probably due in part to high gas prices. "If you go around to all the marinas, you see that most of the boats aren't leaving."

Other boat owners will leave the dock but only for short cruises. Then they drop anchor and cut the engine, to conserve gas.

Oh well.  It's November and I don't have to worry about boat fuel costs until spring.  But I will!

Pete37

 



Edited by Pete37 on November 18 2007 at 15:59


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PAUL NJ
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Posted: November 18 2007 at 17:02 | IP Logged Quote PAUL  NJ

Pete

If you get a chance to look at RESOLUTE with the owner--the boat is on land and wrapped---I would be interested in your comments. Thanks Paul

BTW--does anyone live in the WEST PALM area that might be interested in doing a quick look at a 500 in (I think) INDIAN TOWN?



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Fantasy
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Posted: November 18 2007 at 17:51 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Hi Dave,

The low sulphur campaign is similar to the unleaded (gasoline) campaign we experienced years back, except that they are doing it in stages.  You will soon begin hearing about "ultra-low sulphur," which is the next EPA requirement.

Lowering the sulphur reduces particulate in the exhaust and enables engine manufacturers to add a catalytic converter, which would otherwise be poisoned by the sulphur. In the end, diesels will run as clean as a today's gas engines.

As I understand it, the removal of sulfur does not reduce the lubricity of the fuel but the process of removing it does.  Same difference, I guess.  As a result, the gov requires producers to use additives to increase lubricity, so the end user (us) does not need to buy additives.  Adding these steps to the refining process, plus greater mark-up from wholesaler to retailer to us, is what jacks up the price so much.

My guess is that your boat won't have any less soot.  It will just be cleaner soot.

John

 



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Pete37
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Posted: November 18 2007 at 20:01 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All:

Subject: Fuel Prices

Here are the diesel prices for the last year

The data came from the Energy Information Administration

 http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp

Sorry I don't have a graph for off-highway prices but the prices at the marine pumps seem to be tracking the on-highway prices pretty well.  Now if we just had a crystal ball to predict what the prices will be in the spring.

Pete37

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by Sonja Lowe on June 11 2014 at 11:23


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Ken27
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Posted: November 18 2007 at 20:32 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Pete, John, or anyone else,

I've been aware of the concern for the reduced lubricity of the lower sulfur fuels.  Has it been determined that we in fact do NOT need to use additives to regain this lost lubricity to protect our high load bearing engines?

Ken



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David Ross
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Posted: November 18 2007 at 22:32 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

John and Pete,

Thanks for the fuel responses. Sounds like some are considering a lot less boating or turning their connies into a dock side condo. That's one sure way to eliminate the soot problem.

Dave



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Pete37
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Posted: November 19 2007 at 00:41 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Ken and Dave,

Ken:

I've been told that the low sulphur and ultra-low sulphur diesel fuel have additives put in by the refiner.  But I seem to hear a lot of engine manufacturers saying you need additives anyway.  And my fuel supplier put out a disclaimer saying that they were not responsible for any damage done to my engines by the low sulphur fuel.  I'm going to have to check with Detroit on this one.

Dave:

The thing that's scary is that you can see in the curves I posted above that 2007 fuel prices were pretty much on the same track as 2006 until late September when they took off like a rocket.  The article I quoted from the Boston Globe was written on July 19, 2007 before this latest upsurge.  Things are a lot worse now. 

According to the 2006 curve we should have had a drop of about 50 cents starting in October but instead we had a 50 cent rise.  Prices have risen almost a dollar over what one would expect in only about 45 days.  And so far they don't seem to have stabilized (although gas prices may have dropped a couple of cents).

This does not feel like a seasonal price variation.  We have something new working here.  Part of the rise at marinas might be attributed to the introduction of low sulphur fuel but trucks have been running low sulphur fuel since 2006 and the on-highway fuel prices seem to be going up just as much.  There are a lot of other articles on the EIA site that go into the reasons for the prices.  They are worth reading.

The thing that we have working in our favor is that Connies are very comfortable liveaboards and when run at low rpms are almost as efficient as a trawler (a fast trawler).  So we can take short trips and anchor out in a pretty cove to extend the time we can enjoy on our Connies.  There is nothing saying that you have to be in motion all the time.

One casualty, however, may be winter trips to Florida and back.  2000 miles at 0.75 mpg (10.7 knots @ 1400 rpm) uses nearly 2700 gallons which at $4 per gallon costs more than $10,000 round trip.  Plus dockage at $1,000 per month for four months bumps the total up to $14,000.  I can rent a nice apartment in Florida for less than that.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on November 19 2007 at 09:26


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Fantasy
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Posted: November 19 2007 at 10:17 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Ken,

I've been concerned about this question so I started looking into it.  This is an extremely complicated area and we are the guinea pigs.  Just as with unleaded in the 70's, refiners are meeting lubricity requirements with additives.  It's deja vu all over again but not necessarily a bad thing.  In fact, the air quality improvements should be tremendous.

EPA does not tell refiners what additives to use.  Instead they have adopted a fuel standard (ASTM 975) that is performance based, e.g. it must flash at a certain temp, it cannot scar more than a specified amount, it must have a certain thermal stability, etc.  All fuel sold must meet the performance standard and the standard meets engine requirements.

In theory, no refiner is going to put out a product known to cause engines to self destruct.  On the other hand, I am sure their lawyers are telling them to be very cautious about what they promise.  Ditto for engine manufacturers who are not likely to say "Oh sure, our engine will work fine on the stuff."

EPA says testing shows that the additives being used are adequate and that additional additives are not necessary and could be harmful.  The possible exception is a question of whether or not the new stuff loosens up gunk in the tanks (they're looking for more fleet studies) and possible damage to some seals in the fuel system, which should be a manageable problem.

EPA has a huge amount of information on this topic but it's not easy to navigate to get specific answers: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/marine.htm

Chevron has also put out this fact sheet: http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/diesel/ulsd.s html

John



Edited by Sonja Lowe on October 30 2013 at 09:48


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Pete37
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Posted: November 19 2007 at 11:02 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

Subj: Low Sulphur Diesel Fuel

What John says pretty well summarizes the situation.  The new fuels don't need additives but if your engines break down because of a lack of additives no one will accept responsibility. 

Fortunately trucks and busses have been using low sulphur diesel for over a year now and I haven't heard of any problems.  There are an awful lot of 6V92s still in service on trucks and busses. 

The new fuel being sold now is low sulphur diesel fuel which has 500 ppm or less of sulphur.  Ultra low sulphur diesel fuel which has less than 15 ppm of sulphur won't be introduced in MD until 2010.

One ominous note is that the EPA is considering new regulations for remanufactured engines.  This would probably apply if you did a major overhaul on your 6V92s and there is no way of knowing how much that would add to the overhaul's cost.  No one knows if or when these regulations would be applied.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on November 19 2007 at 11:26


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TStellato
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Posted: November 19 2007 at 20:24 | IP Logged Quote TStellato



The A/C guy that we used is replacing one of the units with a refurbished unit for $350 .  The one in the lower salon was totally shot and since it is one of the main units on the boat we went with a newer larger unit with digital controls and had a new air duct installed on the other side of the salon.  Being a florida boat, all the hoses were gunked up and had to be replaced.  Also using the units on the way up with the clogged lines and did in the compresor.  I may not be saying the details correctly but basically the unit was shot and un-repairable.  I only write the checks!  We are not going to replace the other units with new, instead the guy George is going to rehab and in some cases replace with rebuilt units.  We are not mechanically inclined and can only handle small projects.




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Banjoman
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Posted: November 19 2007 at 20:47 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

Tony - How did you get "another air duct" installed on the other side of the salon?  Did you run the duct through the engine space? 

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Pete37
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Posted: November 20 2007 at 00:27 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Tony and Vicki,

Glad to hear you're getting a good price on the refurbed A/C units.  Too bad you had one so far gone that it couldn't be repaired.  So far I've been lucky with the A/Cs and none have broken down.  But one is making ominous noises so it's good to know that rebuilding it won't be too expensive.  Having a professional rehab your A/C units is the wise thing to do.  Most owners don't have the experience or equipment to properly rebuild A/C units.

The Marine Air A/C units which are used in many Connies are self contained with both compressor and evaporator in one unit so that they don't need an external evaporator.  That makes it easy to remove the whole unit and work on it in a shop.  All that's needed for these systems is electricity, water hookup and air ducts to the wall outlets. 

Some of the other brands have remote evaporators so you don't need bulky air ducts between the unit and the wall outlets.  The disadvantages of this type, however, are that these systems have a propensity to leak refrigerant and are harder to repair.

One of the big problems with the Marine Air units is that the air ducts aren't always properly routed and supported.  Therefore the ducts get crushed and don't deliver the air properly.  If you have a Marine Air A/C unit that doesn't seem to be working properly trace out the air ducts all the way from the unit to the wall outlets before you replace the A/C unit.  Make sure the ducts haven't been crushed anywhere between the unit and wall outlets. 

This takes some work but it's worth it because even if you replace the old A/C unit the new one may not work up to full potential if the air ducts are crushed.  The air duct to the master stateroom is quite long and particularly prone to crushing.  The result is that the office/den freezes while the master stateroom remains hot.

TonguePete37



Edited by Pete37 on November 20 2007 at 13:25


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TStellato
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Posted: November 20 2007 at 09:19 | IP Logged Quote TStellato


Another duct was run across the engine room ceiling and we cut a hole out on the port shelf to line up with the starboard vent.  George had a catalog that had unfinished vent covers that closely matched the existing.  We just stained it to match.  The air is now distributed evenly throughout the room instead of having hot and cold spots.  Also the new unit has digital controls and is a bit more energy efficient.  The pump will actually stop and cycle off once the temperature is correct.  You also have the option of programing the time and temps. (still working on figuring it out).  All in all very happy with it.  The other units are all repairable, except the bow unit.  That one will be switched out with a rebuilt unit and in the spring we will add back a unit that was removed in the upper salon by previous owners.

Wanted to ask if anyone has either replaced the hot water heater with a larger one or has installed a "instant" heat system in the shower to deliver constant hot water.  5 gallons sure doesn't last long!  We had a 40 gal on the other boat and that seemed about perfect for a nice long "shrivel your fingers" kind of shower! Looking a various options for the master shower area.


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Furman1
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Posted: November 20 2007 at 09:34 | IP Logged Quote Furman1

I would be interested in the instant unit also. One of the problems that I have heard about is that it maybe too instant.  In other words it may get too hot and burn the person taking a shower.  I have heard of units that have temp controls. If anyone has a unit I would be interested in learning of their experience.

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Ken27
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Posted: November 20 2007 at 12:09 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Hello everyone,

As most of you might remember, we've been searching for a radar arch for over a year now.  Suddenly we have two possible fabricators.  The original jerk took $3000 of our money for deposits on two arches, and then disappeared.  A couple of you have shared an interest in replacing your swim platforms with new fiberglass units.  DO NOT USE A FABRICATOR WHO IS LOCATED ON THE WEST COAST!  That would be on the "PACIFIC' coast.  (I hope that was subtle enough for you to figure out the name)

Anyway, our boat is an '85.  Can anyone verify that the area the arch will mount to is identical to an '86?

Hoping everyone has happy and safe Thanksgiving,

Ken



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Pete37
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Posted: November 20 2007 at 13:23 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

To Tony & Vicki,

The original water heater was a 20 gallon Galley Maid unit.  It had an upright tank (one where the circular axis is upright) and fit under the galley on the starboard side.  I tried to replace it and had problems.  The problem was that most 20 gallon vertical tanks won't fit under the galley.  They're too tall

I solved my problem by replacing the heater with a 20 gallon horizontal unit which fit nicely in the same location.  Another solution used by other owners is to place the heater amidships on the forward side of the generator room between the engine stringers.  This allows a considerably higher heater to be used and you might even get a greater capacity heater in.  It does, however, make access to the stuff on the port side more difficult.  You may have to remove and relocate your engine oil exchanger pump system if you have one.  That involves a lot of plumbing. And also, unfortunately, that location is often used up by a holding tank.

The trouble with instant heaters is that they put an enormous instant load on your electrical system.  This usually isn't a problem in a house but it can be a problem with the smaller yacht electrical systems (especially when you're not at the dock).

We went through this water heater subject several months ago but I can't remember when.  Perhaps someone else remebers.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on November 20 2007 at 13:28


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David Ross
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Posted: November 20 2007 at 17:22 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Hi Tony and Vicki,

I intstalled a Sears 20 gallon water heater mid ship on the deck right up to the forward wall in the generator room. It freed up a lot of space. Sears had a 30 gallon available that would of fit, but I had planned to install it on the stbd side where it was originally (it would not fit, too high by about one half inch). It has worked out fine.

Dave



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