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David Ross
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Joined: January 02 2007
Posts: 452
Posted: October 24 2007 at 20:23 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Emory, Jim, Pete, Tony & Vickie, Corey, John and all,

Emory - I do not have a TNT swim platform I have the fiberglass slotted one. The earlier Connies had teak. A Jefferson 52' boat in our marina with 6v92's had a soot problem and put long exhaust extensions on and said they didn't work. He still has soot. Sounds like the 45 degree exhaust elbows don't work either according to Corey.

Corey - Thanks for the info on your 45 degree exhaust elbows. I'm not going to order the stainless steel ones I was considering installing.

Jim - I have the 145 "premium" injectors. They were installed I think in 2005. I did not see any differance in performance and still had the soot problem. It seemed like the place to start since as I was told injectors should be replaced  anyway around 1200 hours and that was about where the engines were at. John asked how many hours were on Vickie's boat engines, how many hours do the rest of you have?

Tony & Vickie - Be glad you don't have a transom soot problem. I have to wash off the top soot, then use a cleaner, then polish. To do the transom, aft area, upper flybridge panelling, ect. takes about six hours or so to get it back to match the rest of the boats finish.  

 The soot must be caused by an air and /or fuel problem, a wearing engine or prop drag, possibly made worse by a staion wagon effect. I find boats our age, including Sea Rays, Jeffersons and others powered by 6v92's to have this soot problem. I wonder if changes in fuel over the years had more affect on 6v92's than other diesel engines for some reason?

I am about to intall a clear plastic snap cover over the transom during cruising that I will take off when arriving at port.

Dave

 



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Delaware Jim
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Joined: December 27 2006
Posts: 381
Posted: October 24 2007 at 20:43 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Engine Hours:

We have about 1140 hours on the meters, which were replaced when an overahul was done.  I was told that both engines have been rebuilt - one due to overheating when a water line broke, and the second when the shop initially rebuilt the WRONG ENGINE and, after a lawsuit, did the one originally contracted for the repair...   "Twofer"

Go figure!

Jim



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David Ross
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Posted: October 24 2007 at 22:43 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Ken,

What kind of a swim platform do you have? How many hours on your engines? You said half of the injectors were weak so you replaced all of them. Did you have them checked because of a noticeable problem or just due maintainence? Did you notice any differance in boat operation after the new injectors were installed? Was a tune up done also? Sorry for so many questions but it may give some clues for us with the soot situation.

I was going to say I noticed the sooted transoms were on later boats (1987 and up) and the 1985 and early 1986 models did not seem to have a problem, then I read the last couple posts and Pete observed this also. I wonder if it could depend on when the engines were made and if the Jefferson's, Sea Ray's, etc.  that have  6v92's and the sooted transoms are the ones manufactured about the same date as the later Connies?

Dave



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TStellato
"Deckhand"




Joined: August 12 2007
Posts: 206
Posted: October 24 2007 at 22:45 | IP Logged Quote TStellato


We have about 2000 hours on the one engine that was not rebuilt.  The other engine was rebuilt from the bottom up before we bought it and only has 100 hours or so.

I meant to say that we run about 10000-15000 rpms.  We do not run hard when we leave the slip but do run it up on plane for part of our time out.  Tony said that when he first went to see the boat and during the sea trials, etc....no soot.  Perhaps then there is something about the 1985 models that is different.




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1985 Constellation
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TStellato
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Posts: 206
Posted: October 24 2007 at 22:47 | IP Logged Quote TStellato



BTW...anyone getting rid of their "normal" fiberglass swim platform to try an extended platform.......we have the original teak one and would be interested in a fiberglass one ....at a good price! lol


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David Ross
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Posted: October 24 2007 at 23:15 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Soot comment to all,

Coincidently I was just talking to the owner of the Sea Ray with the 6v92's that has the soot problem. His boat is a 1994, 55' with rebuilt engines (about 300 hours now). He said he had the pitch changed on his props recently and the soot is now only an ocassional problem and not as bad when it does occur. However, the boat hasn't cruised a lot since the prop adjustment and next year should be a better test.

Dave

 



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Banjoman
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Joined: July 02 2007
Posts: 553
Posted: October 24 2007 at 23:32 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

I posed our soot dilema on Boatdiesel and here's a reply I received.

"Corrosion X makes a product called ReJex that it developed for the aviation industry to protect the areas on jet places behind the engine exhaust. It is a thin film polymer that is applied like a liquid wax and allowed to cure overnight. Many of us have used it on our transoms and the soot pretty much just hoses off. It seems to last a couple of years and is very easy to apply.

Uncle Vic"

Here's the URL:  http://corrosionxproducts.com/rejexpage.htm

Might be worth a shot.  I had a waterman on the Lower Potomac that had a pretty decent looking headboat with DD's.  I asked him about keeping his transom clean and he said that he coated his transom with PAM cooking spray. That the soot stuck to it but would then wash off easily.  Of course, we'd need a 50 gallon drum of the stuff to cover our aft ends.  Sounds like Rejex might be worth looking into. Lord knows, I've spent a lot of money on sillier ideas!

Here's another one that was posed to me by a very good (best) friend and one who has spent as many hours in my engine room as I have.  I thinks the problem we have is partially due to the fact that our exhaust are high out of the water, and the pipes are large diameter, and most of the exhaust gases pass out the exit as simply that......exhaust gas, which then rises up and creates havoc.  He feels that if we can "wet" the gas at the exit it will be heavier and then fall to the water prior rather than rising to the transom.  We came up with an idea that is simple and may be doable without even hauling the boat out.  A 1/2" PVC pipe would be clamped to the far-most swim platform braces and would extend down to below the water line.  The pipe would then be plumbed up and over to the exhaust oulet and a fitting of some sort, maybe just a piece of 1/2" PVC with some holes drilled in it so the water would be forced down into the exhaust gas.  No pumps, no wiring, just natural water pressure.  Don't you think it makes sense that if you "wetted" the exhaust gas that it would NOT rise?  I eager await your comments, good or bad.  I've been called everything under the sun anyway, so take your best shot!  Maybe between Rejex and my wet-exhaust invention, we'll have the cleanest transoms of ALL the flushdeck aft cabin MY's around!   Woohoooo!

Emory



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Fantasy
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 07:17 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

That's and interesting idea, Emory.  I once had a performance boat with a speedometer pitot tube built into the nose cone.  I didn't need it for the speedometer, so I used it to shower the outdrive to keep it cool, since most of the outdrive was out of the water.  It worked pretty well but I was traveling up to 75 mph.  It would be interesting to experiment with PVC at lower speeds.  You might try clamping some PVC to a dinghy to see what kind of flow you get. 

Of course, it doesn't address why you have soot in the first place or why some have it and others don't.  In theory, your risers should be wetting the exhaust sufficiently and that's another aspect to consider, although I know Dave has relatively new risers.

John



Edited by Fantasy on October 25 2007 at 07:21


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460 Chris Craft Constellation
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Banjoman
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Joined: July 02 2007
Posts: 553
Posted: October 25 2007 at 08:47 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

John - Good comments.  I've seen several performance boats with o/d "showers" set up to keep them cool.  Interesting.  I agree that you need to address the issue of why are we having soot to begin with.  However, I've come to the conclusion, after reading all these posts, that we have inherent issues with our boats that cause us to experience the soot devil.

A)  The type and/or style of vessel that we own lends its self to auto-contamination.

B) High performance turbo-charged Detroit Diesel two cycle engines are prone to soot under the best of circumstances.

C) Older two cycle engines are more prone to soot.

D) Those who claim no soot are rarely running on plane and if so, not very long.

As long as I run 1400 rpms or under, I have no soot.  I'm also not spooling up the turbo at this point.  Once on plane and running at 1850 - 1950 rpms, you can literally see the smoke barrelling out the back end. I've replaced injectors (unfortunately I used Reliabuilts), replaced turbo, replace exhaust gaskets, cleaned after-cooler, installed new Air Seps, new fuel filters, etc., bottom cleaned, props were scanned and tuned with an 1" of pitch REMOVED just to unload the engines some and help stop smoke/soot. $$$$ The tanks were cleaned, I've installed Algae-X conditions. $$$$$$   So you tell me?!   And all this has been done on the engine that was rebuilt by a mechanic in Solomons and it STILL SMOKES!.

Basically, soot is caused by an improper mixture of the air/fuel/combustion.  There's either too little or too much of one or the other.  The causes are many and I've spent 5 years trying to find mine.  I'm at the point of a final inspection/tune-up by a 28 year experienced DD mechanic (who still works for Western Branch Detroit).  After that, I'll try coating with Rejex and at least make my life easier (if the stuff works) when cleaning the transom.

I used the think, and was told, that diesels were the way to go.  So far my experience has not been a pleasant one.

We should all keep each other posted on this matter and what works and what doesn't.

Emory



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David Ross
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 10:36 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Emory-

You mentioned "unfortunately" you used Reliabuilts when you replaced your injectors. Why did you say unfortunately?  They used 145 Reliabilt "Premium" Injectors in my boat as replacements according to my receipt. I remember the mechanic said to use the premium ones , as they were worth the extra cost.

Dave



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Banjoman
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 11:03 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

Dave - I'm sure the Premiums may be better than some others.  However, I installed Premiums, the engine ran worse.  I pulled them and found a bad one and one I felt was questionable.  I ordered two more, but rather than grab and go, I had them "popped" while I waited.  One was bad and had to be re-ordered (lost two days).  You won't find any mechanics on boatdiesel.com that will say anything good about Reliabilt injectors.  As a matter of fact, some refer to them as "Reliajunk".  

 "Here's a sample: "Bet they were Reliabuilt injectors. After the same story, I yanked all of the Reliabuilt injectors, replaced them with Interstate injectors, and have not had a problem since. I also got my darn money back from Detroit for the crappy injectors they sold me but I am out of pocket the labor to change them. DO NOT USE RELIABUILT INJECTORS."

Another: "John
they were reliabuilt the same as the bad turbo and blower they had to replace."

One more: "Had 12 of 16 Reliabuilt injectors go in 12 months following a major. Replaced with Interstates. Haven't had one go since."

Well.....you get the point.   I'm going to pull the injectors on my port engine one more time and if I find another bad relibuilt, I'm trading them in for Interstates.  I also heard of a guy on Eastern Shore that is a great injector rebuilder and offers a good warranty.  Anyone know who I'm talking about?

 



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Monopoly1954
"Deckhand"




Joined: July 02 2007
Posts: 107
Posted: October 25 2007 at 11:11 | IP Logged Quote Monopoly1954

Good Morning,

I would like to point out the same problem on a different product. I think one fellow owner called it the station wagon effect (the soot problem). I was an Auto Dealer for 30 years before I retired. I am very aware of the station wagon effect and cure. In those days it was not soot. Most all vehicles were gas. The shape and airflow around the vehicle caused the dirt, exhaust gas, and snow to cake up on the rear of the vehicle. This is the very reason why every car company puts the disclaimer in the paperwork about driving with the rear window or tailgate open. The fumes come back into the vehicle and people get sick.

The cure for vehicles is an air deflector on the very rear of the roof or two air deflectors on the sides of the rear posts. This causes a new air pattern and stops the air from coming back in to the rear of the vehicle. It works better at higher speeds.

As well as the air deflector works on vehicles it is no cure for our boats.

I agree with all of the talk about the engines running at the top of their performance,  I do not think it is the cure for all of our boats.  The simple example is the difference in the soot when going with or against the wind. Same boat, same load, same speed, same everything except wind direction.

I was very interested in the TNT lift dimensions, I was thinking the design might have changed the  air flow on the stern.

I am amazed at teh lengths owners have gone to cure the soot problem. It will save the rest of us from spending a great deal of time and money.

I think the answer is that there is no cure.

I will try the new coating mentioned in the other post. I hope it works.

If anyone tries the water solution, please  post your results. The theory  of it makes me think it might work.  If you can stop  the soot from  getting into the air flow  the problem might be solved. It might work better if the water was introduced as a fine mist instead of a stream of water. I am thinking a pump taking sea water and discharging the water through three nozzles in each exhaust. the three nozzles at 9,12,3 o'clock. If you want to make the application work off the ignition key, it is no sweat. I wonder if it will work. That would be SWEET......easy....cheap......and no soot....WOW

I am going to give the idea to a friend for his opinion and design solution.  I will not be able to  install or test  until next year. 


Corey Finkelstein


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MONOPOLY
1986 Chriscraft 500
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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: October 25 2007 at 11:57 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

Subj: More on Soot

Soot on your transom is caused by black smoke emitted from your engines.  And black smoke according to all of the diesel books is caused by incomplete combustion. Basically, too much fuel for the available air. The most likely cause of incomplete combustion, again according to most diesel books, is overloading of the engine.  Secondary causes include insufficient air and defective injectors.

But, on the basis of what I have heard in this forum, we can dismiss insufficient air and defective injectors.  Numerous owners have fine tuned their engines to no avail.  Air filters and injectors have been replaced with no effect.  This leaves overloading as the most probable cause of soot.

Ironically, the fuel crisis has eliminated most of the soot problems.  With owners running their boats at under 1500 rpm overloading is not a factor.  Three years ago I had severe soot problems.  But now that I run at less than 1500 rpm most of the time, the soot problem has diminished to only an annoyance.

There are two factors in creating soot on the transom.  First, the engines must produce black smoke and second, the black smoke must strike the transom.  Apparently, due to the way 1985 Connies were set up black smoke is less likely to occur than in later engines. And the most probable reason for that is that the 1986 and later models were slightly overpropped. 

The solutions, if there are any, is to back off 100 rpm from your normal cruising speed or repitch your props.  I would try reduction in rpm first and then, if that works, reduce the prop pitch a bit.

Keeping the smoke off the transom is the other side of the story.  This involves extended swim platforms and/or extended exhaust pipes. 

There are two boats in our group that have extended swim platforms but they are either 1985 or early 1986 boats and none of the boats in this age group report soot problems.  Therefore it is hard to tell whether the extended swim platforms reduce soot or these boats are just in the age group that doesn't have soot problems. 

We are also getting a mixed bag of answers on the effectiveness of the extended exhaust pipes.  Some people who have installed them say they work.  But almost the same number say they don't work.

Until I can see a solution that definitely works, I'm not going to spend a lot of money on the "maybe works" solutions.  I'll just keep cleaning the transom as needed.  And now that I am running at or below 1500 rpm a lot of the time the transom soot is only an occasional annoyance. 

I'm using "Rolls Off" now to clean the transom and it does a pretty good job with little work.  It's available at Boater's World for about $10 per quart and a quart seems to clean the transom about 3 times.  Ordinary Tide also cleans pretty well but it's highly alkaline so be sure you wash the transom off immediately with fresh water.  Tide also takes off all the wax while "Rolls Off" claims it doesn't.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on October 25 2007 at 13:16


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Ken27
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Joined: December 12 2006
Posts: 138
Posted: October 25 2007 at 13:49 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Dave and everyone,

Dave, in response to your questions, I have a teak, slotted platform, 1250 original hours on the engines, and I replaced all the injectors because about half of them tested weak during a normal tune up.  I noticed no difference in performance, soot/smoke, starting or anything else.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, I've got about 2200 miles of HARD running, at 2000-2100 rpm's to and from MN and Nashville, and many hours at off plane/slow cruising and have never seen the slightest sign of soot.  After following this discussion, the only difference I can percieve between our situation and the rest of you folks is I'm in fresh water.  I can't believe though, that that would have any effect on this issue.

I wish I could give you that magic clue as to why I see no soot, but for the life of me I'm as stumped as the rest of you.

Ken

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Pete37
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 14:07 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Ken,

Do you know the prop diameter, prop pitch and transmission ratio of your boat?

Pete37



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Banjoman
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 14:50 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

To all:  I, like Pete, would love to know the diameter and pitch of the props on our vessels.  I know that some of you must have that.  I need to go to my boat this weekend and look it up.  I had them scanned by Murphys Prop in Norfolk a few years ago and I believe they gave me 28" x 30 P but I may have that ass backwards.  I'll have to check.

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Ken27
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 15:37 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Pete,

We discussed this sometime ago, and now I don't remember the props for sure.  I think they're 29X31.  The boat is being hauled next week so I'll verify that and get back with all the specs.

Ken

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Pete37
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 15:45 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Emory,

Both of my surveyors listed my props as 30" dia by 31" pitch but they may have taken those numbers from my spare props stored in the bilge.  I ran a Boatdiesel Prop Calculator run for my boat and came out with a recommended prop of 30.9" dia and 30.1" pitch for a 2000 rpm cruise.  If the prop is 30" in dia Boatdiesel recommends a 31.1" pitch.  So it looks like the props actually on the shafts have a 31" pitch but I'm going to check that the next time the boat is out of the water.

Your props are quite a bit smaller so they should wind up way past 2300 rpm.

Pete37



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Ken27
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 17:28 | IP Logged Quote Ken27

Question for any or all,

We all have basically the same hull and engine/trans combination so shouldn't we all have the same trans ratio?  If I remember correctly I have a 2/1.  The other 50 near me, '85 also, has 31X31 props, while I think I have 29X31.  Both pair are original props.  I also remember others here saying they have something else.  Why would the props vary so much? 

Ken

I will verify both the trans ratio and prop size on both boats, and possibly a third '85 500, in the next week or so.  I can also get that info on the 501 in my area if anyone is interested.



Edited by Ken27 on October 25 2007 at 17:51
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Pete37
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 18:00 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Ken,

I don't know why the props vary so much but they do.  One reason is that owners always think they can squeeze some more performance out of their boat by changing props and of course prop salesmen always encourage that line of thought.  They seldom do and in many cases they actually loose performance.

As far as I know all the transmissions are 2:1 ratios.  But from my experience every time you think that some feature is universal to Connies you find out that it isn't.  So I ask.

The difference between the power needed to drive a 31" prop and a 29" prop is 14% which is quite substantial.  It sounds like your neighbor's boat is quite overpropped.  Even with 30" diameter props my engines won't rev beyond 2200. He would be lucky to get 2000.  It's interesting that all these props have 31" pitch.  But of course you have to take into account that the props in the bilge may not be the same as those on the shafts.

Your engines have about 7% less load than mine at equal rpm due to the smaller prop diameter.  That's significant but I don't think it's enough to explain the soot problem.

Pete37 



Edited by Pete37 on October 25 2007 at 18:02


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David Ross
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 18:56 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

As stated in discussions awhile back my purchase survey stated the installed props were 29x32. My latest out of water insurance survey has the installed props as 29x33. I was unable to be there to check out. Since they were never changed, I believe this is the correct size and the purchase survey is wrong. I will verify in the spring.

By the way Pete,  Labor Day week end I ran at 10 knots from my marina on the Sassaras to Rock Hall and still had an extremely sooted transom and aft area.

Dave



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Delaware Jim
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 19:57 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Wow, what a large divergence of prop sizes for our Connies!  My boat had 29x30 props and we got 2300 RPM WOT at 23 knots (bottom cleaned that day) on the sea trial.  I had the props redone to remove 1" of pitch (making them 29x29's) to lighten the load somewhat and to ensure I can get to 2350 WOT.  Losing about 1 knot due to the pitch change was not nearly as important as lightening the load on the engines.  I just checked the bilge to confirm the gear ratio (pretty sure it is 2.00:1), but the name plate is painted over, so I need to clean it off to confirm...

Does everyone have the same engine setup?  The J&T 6V92's were originally an industrial engine marinarized by J&T with a single turbo (DD number 8063-7300).  It is interesting that my original J&T documentation spec sheet shows "JT-6V-92TI (530 HP rating)".  I understand the 6V92TIB  came a bit later with  550 hp and dual turbo arrangement.  I think it also has both an intercooler as well as an aftercooler... Does anyone have the 2 turbo engines?

Delaware Jim



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Pete37
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Posted: October 25 2007 at 22:07 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Delaware Jim,

Wow! With 29 x 29 props your engines are extremely lightly loaded and the possibility of soot is nil.  So we know why tyou aren't getting any soot.  But that doesn't explain why Five Star



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Posted: October 25 2007 at 22:27 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Delaware Jim,

Wow!  With 29 x 29 props your engines are extremely lightly loaded.  Now we know why you aren't getting any soot.  But that doesn't explain why The Good Life, Five Star and Lady aren't getting any soot.

The Good Life reports 29 x 31 props which makes the engines lighter loaded than most but not enough to eliminate all the soot.  However, those numbers, I believe are for the props stowed in the bilge (correct me if I'm wrong Jim) and they may not be the same as those on the shafts. 

Tony of Five Star says he didn't get any soot on the way up from FL but he doesn't say what speeds he ran at.  Most of his local travel is at 1500 rpm or less which is below the soot generating level.

I don't know what Furman's props or running speed habits are.  Maybe he'll log in and tell us.

Overload is the major cause for soot so a lightly loaded engine should not generate any soot.

Pete37



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Posted: October 25 2007 at 22:37 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Dave,

What was the wind direction and speed when you ran from the Sassafrass to Rock Hall?  Going out of the Sassafrass you probably had a head wind but for the rest of the trip it was probably abeam if you had the prevailing westerlies.  The trip out of the Sassafrass could have done the damage.  At 29" x 33" you have a rather small diameter and an awful lot of pitch.  What's your rpm at 10 knots?

Pete37



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Banjoman
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Posted: October 26 2007 at 10:03 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

Let's be careful of making too many assumptions regarding our boats.  No, they all didn't come with J&T's.  (Mine are Covington's).  No they all didn't have a rating of 550 hp (acutal).  (Although most brokers will advertise them that way.  Mine was and after calling Covington, discovered that they don't have that rating).   The 500's are advertised in Power Boat Guide as weighing 54,000 lbs.  I had a 1987 weighed with full fuel tanks and the weigh came out to 46,000 lbs.  Quite a difference, huh?  (The lift was new and had just weighed a Sea Ray within 200 lbs of what the Sea Ray factory said it weighed from the plant.)  In the old days, the engineers basically used an "educated" guess at the weight of the big ol' MY's of the day.  Today the builders actually weigh them, imagine that!

So I think we'll  definitely find a lot of variances amongst us, our engines and our props. 

My engines are most likely the 500 hp versions and were "de-tuned" at some point in time with 130 injectors!  How bout' dat?



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Fantasy
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Posted: October 26 2007 at 12:38 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

You make some good points, Emory.  These boat were not all identically powered from the factory and with over twenty + years I'm sure many owners made changes that were not documented.

I was told that on my boat the injector size was increased for more power (J&T also did that on new engines) and I have found that I have lost some propeller diameter, probably from numerous repairs.  More pitch has been added to help compensate but at some point I'll probably need to spring for new props.

Then there is the issue of 3, 4 or 5 blade, cupped or not, nibral or bronze and on and on it goes...  Ughh, lots of variables.

John



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Posted: October 26 2007 at 15:45 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Emory & John,

Hey Emory!  Stop calling 1987 "The Old Days"  you're making me feel old.  I remember the mid 80s and everything was fairly modern.  We had flush toilets in the house, automobiles and color telebishuns.

It's interesting, the 500s are listed at 54,000 lbs. in the 1985, 1986 & 1987 Chris Craft Sales literature I got at the Mariner's Museum.  The 460s are listed at 49,000 lbs.  These are all wet weights.  Uniflite 460s are usually listed at 46,000 lbs. dry which would be consistant with 49,000 lbs wet.  If you assume that the weight is approximately proportional to length the 460 weights would be about (500/460) x 49,000 = 53,260 lbs. for a 50 foot model.  That's a little low but the 500s have bigger engines and bigger tanks.

The 501s are generally listed at 49,000 lbs. in the broker's ads but I don't have any Chris Craft data on them.  However, I've always thought the reason the 501s were lighter is that the weight was a dry weight as opposed to the wet weight of the 500s.

I tried the Boatdiesel calculator with the 46,000 lb. weight you gave me and the top speed is about 2 knots faster than I've ever been able to make.  The cruising speed at 2000 rpm is also about 1.5 knots faster. 

Somehow, even back in the dark ages of the mid 80s, I doubt that things were so primitive that they just eyeballed the weight.  An error of 8,000 lbs (17%) is an awful lot.  Even in the days of wooden sailing ships they were more accurate than that.  But on the other hand you say you saw it with your own eyes.  I don't know what to think.

BTW John, I just saw a pair of used 30" props listed in the Boat US ads at $9,500.  When you say you're going to "pop" for a new set of props your eyeballs really will pop when you see the price.

Pete37 



Edited by Pete37 on October 26 2007 at 16:17


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Posted: October 26 2007 at 18:02 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Yes Pete, I know they're expensive, which is why I've been doing what I can to keep mine functional.  I have spares but they're 3 blade and I prefer the 4's.  Nevertheless, the metal is thinning and sooner or later something will need to be done.

Last year I ran 260 hrs, most of it ICW and it's getting harder every year to keep from finding bottom.  Several areas are no longer passable at low tide, so one good crunch is not unlikely and could probably do me in.  Yet another reason for running at hull speed, I guess.  November 1st will start our seventh ICW pass and I'm hoping my luck holds.

John



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Posted: October 27 2007 at 01:03 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi John,

Yeah, I've thought about doing the ICW to Florida a number of times.  Jupiter, FL (our favorite place) is about 1000 miles away and at 10 knots that's about 100 hours, 1,400 gallons and $4,200.  Figure about 10 days dockage at $1.50 per foot and youve got about another $750 or very close to $5,000 to Fl.  Then there's 6 months dockage at about $1,000 per month for $6,000 followed by another $5,000 to get back for a total round trip cost of $16,000.Ouch

I also figure you need major engine overhauls about every 2,000 hours and they cost about $20,000 (for a pair) so that's about $10 per hour or $2,000 per round trip.  This bumps the cost to $18,000.Dead

But if you figure you're there for 6 months (180 days) its only $100 per day for two people which is pretty inexpensive for Florida lodging.  Plus you get the enjoyment of going there and returning.Tongue

My wife, Arlene, doesn't figure it that way.  She says it's $18,000 we can't afford to spend and claims we can do it cheaper in timeshares.  I'm not sure about that. Confused

The main reason we don't go to Florida for the whole winter is that we both get bored and frustrated with the place after about a month.  So we make two one month trips to Florida; one in October and one in February.  This year we dropped the October trip because we took a New England and Nova Scotia cruise in September.

What I really want for winter is an enclosed and heated shed in which I can get all the work on the boat done that I promised to do in the summer.  But the cost for that is also too expensive. Cry

Some year we'll do Florida but the years pass by and we both get older without doing it.  I'm beginning to think it's not in the cards for us.  Anyway, here's wishing you a safe and enjoyable trip.

Pete37



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Posted: October 27 2007 at 07:22 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Hi Pete,

Your numbers are pretty close.  We take about 20 running days to get to the Treasure Coast and anchor out for two or three nights to one night in a marina.  Another cost is insurance, which bumps up significantly between Norfolk and Jacksonville and then again below Jacksonville.

However, we don't stay in one place for six months.  This year, we'll get to North Carolina and then head back for a week or two at Thanksgiving.  Then we'll move the boat to Georgia and come back for Christmas.  After the first, we'll reach Florida (Ft. Pierce) and probably stay for two months before heading north, perhaps staying in St. Augustine or Myrtle Beach for a month or so.  We've been trying to get to the Fl west coast but there have been major issues with the canal.

These one or two month stays give us the opportunity to know and enjoy all that's available in each area and to make some really good friends.  Plus, we come back often enough to keep my wife from slipping into grandchildren withdrawals.

We could not easily do this if I still had a house to worry about (maintenance, taxes, etc), so what I save there makes cruising more manageable.

Thanks for the good wishes and I hope you have a warm and productive winter.

John



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Delaware Jim
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 07:41 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Hello all

1.  THANKS to John of Fantasy for the great assist he provided to help me get the washer/dryer out of the cabinet.  He did what I couldn't - I'd still be working at this process.

2. I need to drain and replace the antifreeze as I have no idea what is in it now.  The DD shop manual states there are drain cocks in the block at the rear under the exhaust manifolds (each side) and at the front.  Anyone done this and can advise better where the se drain cocks are located?

Jim

 



Edited by Delaware Jim on October 27 2007 at 07:50


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Posted: October 27 2007 at 11:39 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

I have noticed that the 48' (55' with cockpit) Califorians appear to have factory installed slightly angeled and cupped exhaust extesions. They did not appear to have any transom soot. 6v92's were an option and I believe the models were 1988 to 1991. If you see any of these boats talk to the owner.

I wonder if we could try and contact the original (or at least newer owner) of our Connies to see if they had a soot problem. I think I have the phone number of my original owner and his captain's somewhere. An original dealed could be another good source. Woody Jackson (Jackson Marine) comes to mind. They are located in Northeast, Maryland and Florida (Ft. Lauderdale?).

Pete, to answer you questions about my run to Rock Hall; I normally do not run at lower speeds but had an immediate starboard engine overheating problem and I did not pay attention to windspeed, direction, etc. or exact rpm. Around 1500 rpm is a good guess. As mentioned a real sooted transom when I arrived. I was going 18 knots for a few miles (3 to 4?) until I noticed the overheating.

Dave



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Banjoman
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 11:51 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

Dave - 1500 rpms would not be a good guess if you were running 18kts. 

18 knots is the cruise speed for these boats (source: Power Boat Guide) with optimal engine performance.   At that speed you would have been running around 1950 rpms (est).

At 1500 rpms you are lugging the engines.  1400 rpms (close +/-) gives me around 10 kts and the boat tolerates that as about top rpm at hull speed. 

1500 gives me some smoke and digs the stern, lugging the engines.

Is this just my boat? 

Yes, I also have noticed the Californians with the angled exhaust.  I might add that most 80's model Vikings have turned-out exhausts.  I believe that we might accomplish soot-free transom with a combination of ideas.  HOWEVER, I find it hard to believe the Uniflight and Chris-Craft let these barges out the door with the transom soot that some of us are experiencing.  The customers would have gone through the roof!  Don't you think?

Speaking of Uniflight, I think I might check in with those folks and see what responses I receive.

 



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Fantasy
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 12:21 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Emory,

I could be wrong but I think all of the Uniflites had 6-71's and were up to 46' in what would become the Constellation.

If they are like mine, the exhaust risers look similar to an aqualift muffler with a raw water inlet on top that showers the exhaust coming out of the turbo (the originals were made from cupper-nickel and I had a set manufactured out of stainless after one failed).  The inside is baffled with an interior dome that distributes the raw water around the cannister.  I don't know if it's related but I don't get any soot although they smoke on a cold start-up, even with block heaters.

John



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Pete37
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 13:19 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All:

John:

If I got rid of the house and all its expenses I'd be swimming in money.  But my wife would divorce me and I'd probably loose more in the divorce than I'd gain from reducing the house expenses.

Emory:

Yeah I agree.  I don't think Connies produced this much soot when they were new.  Age has taken a toll on our engines.  The obvious answer is to buy new engines (probably not Detroits).  But that cure (because of the cost) is worse than the illness. 

The transition from displacement to planing speed is quite gradual in Connies.  You don't see the pronounced "hump" that you see in some boats (particularly outboard and outdrive boats).  About 1700 rpm is the beginning of the planing mode but I never run at that speed because the handling is very poor.  1900 is about as slow as I will tolerate in cruising performance.  Below that it's engine overhaul time.  The displacement mode stops somewhere between 1500 and 1600.  Below 1500 the fuel economy increases very rapidly but below 1300 it is very questionable whether the engines reach a high enough temperature to prevent damage to the engines. 

This leaves two basic operating modes.  The first is 1300-1500 rpm which produces speeds of 9.5-11.2 knots and fuel consumptions of 13-17 gph.  I prefer 1400 rpm because the engines are definitely warm enough yet the economy (14 gph) is still reasonable.

When I'm in a rush I go to the planing mode of 1900-2000 rpm whch produces speeds of 18-19 knots and fuel consumptions of 35-38 gph.  I prefer to stay at or below 2000 rpm because the engines definitely stay cool enough under all conditions.

As the cost of fuel rises I'm trending more and more towards 1400 rpm operation.  I'm basically a high speed trawler operating at an SLR of about 1.6. It's pleasant, I enjoy the scenery going by and of course much less expensive than the planing mode.  In most cases I'm really not in a rush to get anywhere and I don't get much soot at that speed.

Jim:

Unfotunately neither the J&T or the DD manuals give a very clear explanation of where the drain cocks are.  There are two types; one for raw water and one for the fresh water in the engine block and you don't want to mix them up.

I drain the heat exchanger reservoir every year and put a new antifreeze mixture in.  Then I run the engine until I'm sure it's mixed with the fresh water in the block and check the freeze point with a hydrometer.  If it's not low enough I add antifreeze again and repeat the process.  The heat exchanger holds about 10 gallons while the block holds only about five so you wind up with a mixture of 2/3rds new and 1/3rd old antifreeze mixture.  The next year the old antifreeze will be only 1/9th and following that 1/27th.  So in a couple of years you'll have all new coolant.

The biggest problem you have is that you've waited too long.  You should change your block antifreeze before September when you still have the opportunity to run your engines enough to assure complete mixing. In your case, I would suggest ,measuring the present freeze point carefully with a hydrometer.  Then drain the heat exchanger and refill with a mix that will make the whole 15 gallons safe.  The run your engines as much as possible to mix the new antifreeze in the heat exchanger with the block water.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on October 27 2007 at 15:15


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Posted: October 27 2007 at 13:46 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

John - you are correct sir!  The Uniflight produced the 46' and also produced what became the 480 Catalina (48' cockpit).  I almost bought one of those with the Cats in it.  The cockpit sure would have been nice with the dog and all.  But I digress.  I think all the Uni's had the 671's in them.  However, I've seen 671's with sooted transoms.  I joined and dropped a note on the Uni crowd and asked their opinion/experience/comments.  Hope I hear something from them.

Pete - How on God's Green Earth (or what's left of it) do you get 35-38 gph at 1900 rpm?  I've got smaller injectors and burn about 46 gallons an hour and that's the best I've ever gotten.  Either I'm doing the math wrong or something is severely wrong with my boat.  It has been routinely reported to me that 501 owners burn 50 gph at cruise.   Two years ago, I took my boat to Hampton for the winter.  Their was a strong head wind and 3 foot seas from Smith Pt to Back Creek (North Hampton).  I burned 50 gph.  I know you are a meticulous man (I can tell by your writing), so I don't question your math.  I'd just love to know how you are getting that kind of mileage on DD 550 hp engines!

What are the rest of you guys getting?  Maybe I really need more help on these engines than I thought!



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Pete37
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Posted: October 27 2007 at 14:11 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Emory,

The specific fuel consumption listed by J&T for a 530 hp 6V92TI (I don't have 550s) propeller loaded at 2000 rpm is 18.5 gph.  For two engines that's 37.0 gph.  For a pair of 550 hp engines the fuel consumption @ 2000 rpm would probably be about 38.4 gph.

Boatdiesel estimates a specific fuel consumption of 41 gph for pair of 530 hp @ 2300 rpm diesel engines running at 2000 rpm.

Data from various boat magazine tests give engine fuel consumption readings for boats with a pair of 6V92TA engines from a low of 35.2 gph to a high of 45.2 gph @ 2000 rpm.

But I don't depend competely on manufacturer's data or boating magazine tests.  My most accurate data comes from a trip to Norfolk where I averaged 0.48 nmpg @ 18.4 knots.  That's 38.3 gph which is pretty close to the 37 gph J&T claims.

These numbers all assume the engines are in good working condition.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on October 27 2007 at 15:00


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Posted: October 27 2007 at 14:34 | IP Logged Quote Banjoman

Pete, et al,

I owe you the sincerest of apologies!   I left a to go to the bank and while driving their ran figures in my head.  I don't know what I was thinking in my reply to you.

You, of course, are correct in your calculations.  My average fuel burn rate has been 36 - 40 gph.  NOT 50!   However, I DID burn 50 gph on that winter run to Hampton as I stated (a bad injector was later found, which accounted for part of the burn, the wind and head seas accounted for the rest).  Also, I have had reported to me by two 501 owners that they average near 50 gph at full cruise.  They may be over-exagerating that a bit.

Again, my apology to you.  As I said, I know you are a meticulous man and I should have engaged the brain before the "send" key.

 



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Posted: October 27 2007 at 15:20 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Emory,

It's getting hectic.  Before I can respond to one post there are two post modifications to the original post.

Pete37



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