Posted: January 16 2013 at 21:35 | IP Logged

Hi All,

It's amazing that the insurance company paid for bad welds in a 25 year old tank.  Of course the situation on a 501 is completely different than in a 500 so I hope that solution isn't necessary on a 500 because it sounds very expensive.

Recently the Forum reaction time has been extremely slow.  Has anyone else had this problem?

Pete37

Posted: January 17 2013 at 13:14 | IP Logged

Hi Wayne,

Subject: Fuel Tank Leaks

The name of the company that made the fuel tanks in my Connie was Florida Marine Tanks.  They are also still in business.  Your tanks were made by Miami Tanks so apparently Chris Craft used tanks from at least two venders.  The moment you think something is standard on a Connie you find that it isn’t.

Removing the hand rail on the companionway between the lower and upper salon is easy.  Just remove the speaker on the port side of the aft lower salon bulkhead and you’ll see the bolts that hold the hand rail.  My boat doesn’t’ have a hand rail on the companionway between the lower hall and the lower salon.  If your boat does you’ll have to find out how to remove it.  If you can get the tank into the lower salon you might be able to get it out through one of the windows.  I don’t have the height of those windows at my fingertips but I think it’s a little more than 24” high.

As Emory points out there may be more than one hole and there may also be numerous places where the tank walls are thin which could develop leaks later.  You definitely don’t want to fix this tank more than once and the other tank may also have problems.  A key factor here is to not only fix the leak you have but also the leaks you are likely to have in the future.  Inspecting the inside of the tanks thoroughly requires some sort of inspection port.

You will probably have to cut an inspection port into at least the tank which is leaking to get a good look.  I would recommend cutting a port in both tanks so that you can check out the other tank as well.  Cut the ports in the top where they are unlikely to develop leaks.  Weld in patches when you are finished.

Fixing the tank in the boat would probably be the easiest if you can find a welder who will do it.  Unfortunately I can’t help you much on finding the welder.

Apparently when the boat is at rest the bottom of the tank slopes forward and therefore water (being heavier than diesel fuel) accumulates at the bottom of forward end of the tank.  Since most Connies list to port its surprising that the leak didn’t develop on the port side.

For those of you who doing major fuel or oil spill cleanup in your bilges you will probably be using oil absorbent pads.  These are made by 3M and sold in most marine stores.  West Marine has them for about $1.00 each.  Last spring I had an oil spill which required a lot of clean up.  After buying a bunch of pads at $1.00 each I decided there must be a cheaper source.  I used “The Find” on the web to search for all companies that sold the pads and found one which had them for 30 cents each.  I bought a package of 50.

The name of the company was GOV Group, 5858 Edison Place, Carlsbad, CA 90028.  They are not a marine supplier but the pads were identical to those I bought from West Marine.  There are dozens of other firms which sell the same pads at substantially lower cost than marine suppliers.

Remember “The Find”.  I do and use it regularly whenever I buy anything expensive for the boat (or home).  It doesn’t cost anything and the savings are sometimes in the hundreds of dollars.  I just saved about $320 on the purchase of some batteries.

I believe there are some chemicals specifically designed to remove diesel oil odors.  I’ll do a search for them.

Pete37

PS:  Before cutting any inspection ports you should get a drawing of the tank from the manufacturer.  There may be internal baffling which will block your view of the critical areas (forward wall) of  the tank.

Posted: January 17 2013 at 15:54 | IP Logged

Wayne,

Hope you can get your fuel tank leak repaired in the easiest and most cost effecient manner. As you are well aware and others have mentioned, I sure would check it's conditon thoroughly, what caused the leak and check the other tank before deciding which repair route to take. I am a strong believer in replacing (or at least performing preventative maintenance) on both units when they are in pairs on a boat. However, multiple fuel tanks may require a different approach.

A couple years ago two boats in our marina each had one of their fuel tanks (located in the engine rooms) replaced. Both owners decided to have them removed via a hole cut in the side of the hull. I was amazed that you could not tell any signs of the hole or blended in paint! I was told the hull was structurally stronger then before. The fiberglass repairman is known for his incrediblile workmanship. The point is, with engine room tanks the way to go is check the other tank out as best as possible and if ok wait and repalce as needed. In your case, with both tanks side by side and not in the engine room, it may be worth considering doing something with the "good" tank after thoroughly checking it out along with method of repair and removal of the leaking tank. Definitley consider adding inspection/cleanouts.

We did not go to Florida again this year and decided to return to the Western United States. Perhaps next winter we will go back to Florida and work out a get together. Good luck on that repair. Keep us posted.

PS to all: I have not had a problem with slow reaction time here on the Forum.

Posted: January 17 2013 at 15:59 | IP Logged

To all,

Sorry about the small font size on my last post. Forgot to adjust it up.

Posted: January 18 2013 at 10:50 | IP Logged

Hi Captain Wayne,

Subject: Oil Absorbent Pads and Diesel Odor Eliminators

I checked out Dawg and their pads (Dawg Maxx-Heavy Weight) are 26 gallon pads (per 100 sheets).  But they only cost $40 per case.  If you've been paying $65 somebody has been ripping you off.  However, the same thing from West Marine costs $134 so you didn't do too bad.

I checked out diesel odor removers and got a pot load of answers.  Too many to show here.  Just go to the web and search for "Diesel Odor Eliminators" and you'll get too many answers to make any sense out of it. There are a whole bunch of ordinary household products that work to a degree but to what degree is questionable.

One item that continues to pop up is "ozone generators". They work but aren't allowed to be used in occupied spaces.  They're illegal in most states.  Ozone does nasty things to your lungs.  The general rule of thumb is "If you can smell the ozone it's unsafe."  Of course all the ozone generator manufacturers will tell you their products are safe but that's not what the doctors say.  We installed some in the heads of our marina but had to take them out.

If you wanted to put an ozone generator in your boat while it was winterized and not occupied that might work.  But it also screws up plastics including the insulation on wiring and plastic seat cushions.  The plastic gets brittle and cracks.

Glad to hear that your tanks already have inspection ports.  That will save some time and money.

Pete37

Posted: January 18 2013 at 17:46 | IP Logged

Hi Wayne,

Subject: Tank Replacement

I’m sure you don’t want a repeat of Walt’s solution.  $15,000 is a pot load of money.  Allen’s idea of cutting up the old tanks, removing them and putting in slightly smaller tanks seems to make a lot more sense.

You could probably cut up the old tanks with a sawsall and take them out yourself.  Cost $0.  Then buy two new tanks.  You would need to reduce the depth by about 6” to get them through the door.  That would leave you with a tank of about 150 gallons.  I did some checking and a stock 150 gallon tank would cost about $1000.  Buy two of these and install them yourself.  Cost about $2000.  That’s a hell of a lot cheaper than $15,000.  Even if you go to a custom tank at about $1500 each the total cost would be only $3000.

You would lose about 100 gallons of capacity this way.  If you want to keep your fuel capacity you could install new 200 gallon custom made tanks for about $3000.  You would have to remove the door in the hall and replace it but I’m sure that for a couple $K you can get it replaced so that it looks better than the original.  One thing for sure; at $15,000 you don’t want to cut a hole in the ceiling.

Plastic tanks are cheaper but in general they don't have internal baffles which allows the fuel to slosh and create bubbles.  Diesels don't like bubbles in the fuel. 

Anyway, the cost of the aluminum tanks is not the cost driver.  It's the way you install them that counts.  And they won't be any smaller than the aluminum tanks.  At the age of your boat it's doubtfull that new aluminum tanks would ever fail while you own the boat.

Pete37. 1/18/2013

PS:  The cost of Walt's job was probably driven by the fact that on a 501 there is no way to get the tanks out other than the circular staircase leading to the master stateroom.  The tanks are too big to go out through the staircase.  So in his case cutting a hole in the ceiling may have been the only way to do the job. 

On a 500 you can take the tanks out through the hallway.  This is a totally different job.  You may have to remove the hallway door and its frame but that's much cheaper than cutting a hole in the ceiling.

Posted: January 20 2013 at 11:05 | IP Logged

Allen,

You mentioned your new cruising speed is 8 knots. Just wondered what temperature your engines are running at and if you kick it up ocassionally to "clean" it out. 

Posted: January 21 2013 at 13:41 | IP Logged

Hi All,

Subject: Engine Lifetime

There seems to be a common myth going around that you can run your engines at idle for a long time and do no damage to them provided you just blow them out with a half hour of high speed running.  To test that theory I went to Yachtworld and did a search for 43’ 1986 to 1988 Egg Harbor Sport Fishermen.  I picked the Egg Harbors because they are boats specifically designed and used for sport fishing. 

They’re somewhat smaller than our Connies (43’) which makes their displacement about half of a Connie but most of them use 671s rather than 692s.  This makes their horsepower to weight ratio somewhat higher than a Connie.  Almost all of them are used for ocean fishing.

The typical modus operandi is to cruise out to the fishing spot at high speed, troll for fish for most of the day and then cruise back at full speed to get back to the bar in time for Happy Hour.  So they are exposed to long periods of idle operation followed by high speed running which should be plenty long enough to “blow them out”.

Let’s see what the Yachtworld search shows us:

I had hoped to get a larger sample but there were only seven for which the broker’s ad had engine data.  Although this is a small sample the remarkable thing is that all seven have had major overhauls and the typical time to first MOH was only about 15 years which with typical yearly engine hours would be about 1000 hours to major overhaul.  It’s remarkable that four out of seven failed in 2003 at a life of only about 15 years.  A long time ago I did a study of the lifetime of 6V92s and found that they too when in sport fisherman service had lifetimes of only about 1000 hours.

The old wives tale that you can burn out all that carbon by just a short high speed run doesn’t seem to hold up in practice.

Pete37, 1/21/2013

Posted: January 21 2013 at 16:39 | IP Logged

Allen

Thanks for your boat running info. No can of worms should be opened; we all have heard the various scenerios, opinions, manufacturers input, etc. I enjoy civil input from the forum and have benefited from many of the suggestions. We are each our own captain and can consider the data and make our choice.

Wayne

Our boat is currently winterized in Georgetown, Md.

Posted: January 23 2013 at 00:14 | IP Logged

Hi All,

Subject: Engine Lifetime

In my last post on engine lifetime I tried to avoid any theories, opinions or scenarios.  The results are just the facts taken from "Yachtworld" on January 21, 2013 for a group of diesel powered Egg Harbor sport fishermen.  The sample was completely unbiased.  All 43' Egg Harbor Sport Fishermen in the 1986-1988 period which had broker's ads with data on engine hours over 1000 hours or engine major overhaul dates were included.

The result is pretty clear.  If you run your boat like a sport fishermen with long hours of low load, low temperature trolling you will probably not get more than 15 years (about 1000 hours) before your first MOH. 

The Detroit Diesel Series 92 Operators Manual on Page 3 of Section 4 tells you to "Avoid Unnecessary Engine Idling" and tells you the reasons why long idling periods are bad for your engine.  It also defines 800 rpm as the low end of the normal operating range.  Anything below that is idling.

Presumably Detroit knows what they are talking about and their statements seem to be confirmed by the short engine lifetimes found for sport fishermen on "Yachtworld".

Pete37, 1/23/2013

Posted: January 24 2013 at 00:43 | IP Logged

Hi All,

Subject: Bilge Heater Test

My Connie came equipped with three thermostatically controlled bilge heaters.  Two are in the engine room and one is in the generator room.  They are 500 watt AC units with a thermostat that can be set to anywhere between 40F and 80F.  Their main use is to keep well pumps on farms from freezing during the winter and they are usually called “pump house heaters”.  On boats they are used to keep the engine rooms warm enough to prevent things from freezing.

During the winter I flip them on in late January and turn them off in early March.  They burn about 1200 ampere hours per winter at a cost of about $150.  That’s expensive but far less expensive than freezing up a diesel.  My diesels and boat are of course fully winterized but the heaters give a little extra protection against freezing. I’ve always felt that the extra protection was worth the cost.

But I never knew what temperature the heaters could maintain in the engine room at during really cold weather.  Today the temp dropped to 24 degrees after a night in the teens so I decided to find out what the engine room temp was and went down to the boat to measure the temp.  Outside the boat the temp was 24F, in the upper and lower salon 27F and in the engine room (with two heaters on) it was 32F (just freezing).  The heaters seem to bump the engine room temp up by about 8F which is just enough to protect the engines down to 24F assuming that the engines have no antifreeze.  But I usually use an antifreeze mix with a -10F freeze point so the heaters give an extra margin of 8F protecting them down to -18F which is much colder than anything we get on the Chesapeake Bay.

The heaters also seem to keep the bilge water from freezing and jamming up the bilge pumps.  I’ve never seen any ice in the bilge even in the coldest weather.

One of my heaters was damaged this year and I had to replace it.  I found a replacement thermostat at Home Depot and the heater on the web for a total cost of about $120.  I may add a third heater in the engine room next year.

Pete37, 1/24/2011

Posted: February 09 2013 at 11:17 | IP Logged

Hi All,

Subject: Just Testing

Haven't logged in recently and apparently my password had changed.  So I'm testing the new password.

Pete37

Posted: April 13 2013 at 18:13 | IP Logged

Hi Emory,

Subjects: Shaft Packing and Inverters

My shafts take 1/2" packing. I bought Duramax Ultra-X but so far have not been able to get most of the old packing out, Best I was able to do was to get in one ring of the Ultra-X. Need a better packing removal tool. However, even one ring of the Ultra-X has cut the leakage down drastically.

My water tank also seems to be leaking so I got out your old post on the water tank removal and read it over. Really don't want to do that job so I'm going to do a thorough check of the tank before I do anything.

I did some checking and found out why the old forum died out. It was because they changed the rules so that only Boat US members can post. It knocked out almost all of the other forums at the same time our forum died.

As long as Boat US requires membership in Boat US to be able to post.I think this forum is effectively dead.  You and I are members anyway so it doesn't affect us but most of our forum participants weren't Boat US members.

I've looked around and found a few boating forums out there that don't require any special membership and seem to be fairly sophisticated.  I've got addresses for nearly all Connie owners so I could send out letters to announce the new forum location but I'm not sure how much interest there is. 

My Connie continues to have problems and I'm sure yours does too.  Having a forum where you can explain your problems and often get responses from other owners who have had the same problem and solved it was and is a valuable asset.  I miss it.

During the past winter I've designed an inverter system which will allow my Connie to operate independently from shore power. It provides up to 700 AH (8.4 KWH) per day.   Peak power during times when the genny is off is about 3000 watts and average power about 500 watts.

It requires only 7 hours of genny operation per day consisting of 2 hours at breakfast, 2 hours at lunch and 3 hours at dinner tiime. Since you have to run the genny at those times anyway to prepare meals the inverter doesn't really require any extra genny time.

The two major problems, getting the money and persuading the wife that we need an inverter have been solved.  On the latter, I did a great job.  She's actually enthusiastic about the inverter system and wants to know when it will be ready. 

It's expensive (about $1,500) but cheaper than any other solution to off shore power independence we've looked at, produces no hazardous fumes, is reasonably compact and is nearly silent.

Pete37

Posted: April 14 2013 at 11:01 | IP Logged

Hi All,

Subject: Further Info on the Water Tank

I opened up some panels in the guest stateroom next to the forward bulkhead and was able to see (and work on) the area of the water tank where the fill hose from the deck enters the tank.  I then decoupled the fill hose from the tank and was able to fill the tank right up to the top with water from a dock hose.  I've waited for two days now to see if the water level would drop (which would indicate a leaking water tank).  It hasn't dropped and I haven't lost even an ounce from the tank.

So now I know my water problems definitely aren't caused by a leaking tank and I won't have to remove the tank.  That's an enormous relief.  I'll concentrate now on the pump and the pipes.  Fixing those should be pretty easy.

For anyone who thinks he has a leaking water tank I would recommend that he determine whether it really is the tank that's leaking before rippng out the tank.

Emory Shover of "Southern Charm" wrote an excellent paper (with pictures) on removing the water tank.  He did it back in April of 2009.  Anyone contemplating a water tank removal should read his paper first.  I have copies and I'm sure he does too.  But he didn't have any drawings of the tank.  If anyone has drawings of the water and/or fuel tanks I'd like to get copies for the Forum archives.

Pete37

Posted: April 15 2013 at 00:52 | IP Logged

Hi Capt Wayne,

Subject: Water Tanks

Yes, I'm lucky (for now) that I don't have a leaky water tank.  But I sort of suspect that the tank will eventually develop leaks.  Today I found that the problem was leaks in the pipes which I fixed.

Your picture shows water puddling at the back of the cavity from which the water tank had been removed.  But in a Connie at rest in the water, the bilges all slope forward.  And therefore all bilge water flows towards the bow.  So bilge water shouldn't accumulate there. However, if your boat was blocked up on land at the time the picture was taken the bow may have been higher than the stern and therefore water could accumulate at the aft end of the cavity as shown in your picture.

Water in the compartment in which the water tank rests flows forward to the bulkhead between the guest cabin and engine room and then stops there.  So corrosion should be most pronounced at the forward corners of the tank. 

I did some tests a long time ago which indicated that while there wasn't any large drain hole in the bulkhead to allow water to drain out there were some small leaks which allowed the water in the compartment to drain into the engine room. 

At one time I tried to drill a hole in the bulkhead to enhance the drainage but I was only partially successful.  The tank rests directly on the bulkhead and I was afraid that if I drilled too far I would puncture the water tank.

There appear to be two blocks of wood protruding from the bottom of the water tank cavity.  Do you know what they are for?  There also seems to be a grounding strap on the back wall of the cavity.  Was it attached to anything?

While I was in the guest stateroom today I noticed that there are two wall switches (in separate locations).  Both appear to be AC switches.  I know that one controls the ceiling light but I can't figure out what the other switch is for.  It doesn't control any lights in the stateroom and there aren't any fans in the room.

Is the bottom of the tank flat or is it V shaped to conform to the bilge?

That old gray pipe is polybutylene pipe.  Back in the 80s and 90s it was widely used in household (and boat) plumbing.  The pipe is fine and I've never had any pipe failures in the 18 years I've owned my Connie. 

But the pipe fittings (elbows, tees,  etc) are made of acetal plastic (a darker shade of grey) and frequently crack.  The fittings gave the whole polybutylene plumbing system a very bad reputation.The original fittings where held in place by swaged aluminum or copper bands.  If you see any of those in a normally inaccessible location I recommend that you replace them. 

The newer fittings (which don't have bands) are OK. but a purist would probably like to replace all of the old plumbing. However, there are hundreds of pipes and fittings in a Connie so complete replacement just isn't practical.

The new stuff you installed is PEX pipe and it is held together by Shark Bite fittings.  The Shark Bite fittings are one of the better lines of fittings although there are a whole bunch of companies that make reliable but less expensive fittings.

Pete37

Posted: April 15 2013 at 12:24 | IP Logged

Hi Capt Wayne,

OK, if that's a picture looking forward, the puddling against the forward bulkhead of the guest staterooom makes sense.  And what looks like a hole in the ceiling (next to the bulkhead ) must be the hole through which I can access the tank plumbing.  The picture makes a lot more sense now..

I sort of suspected the bottom of the tank was flat and that the tank rested on it's port and starboard edges.  That leaves most of the bottom of the tank above the bilge water.  So corrosion would be most severe at the forward corners of the tank.  Now would be a good time to drill a hole in the bulkhead to let the puddle drain into the engine room.

Does the width of the tank taper in the fore and aft direction or does it have a constant wiidth?  My idea of drilling a hole in the bulkhead to drain the water into the engine room was probably a good one.  But unfortunately it's too risky.  You could easliy drill through the tank wall.

Over the years, I've removed many small sections of the pipe while doing plumbing modifications but I've never seen a calcium coating inside the pipes.  I have a number of these pipe sections laying around the boat in storage boxes.  I'll take a second look at the inside of the pipes.  Maybe it's the water in your area.  Does your system have a water filter on it?

What type of water pump are you using?  Mine has a pressure switch but no flow regulator.

Your right. The ceiling light is a Thin Lite fluorescent which is a DC light but the switch looks like an AC switch.  I don't remember a fluorescent over the window but if there is one it isn't working.  That could be what the switch is for. I'll look. 

Pete37

Posted: April 15 2013 at 14:29 | IP Logged

Hi Emory,

I have some of the specs of the tank as shown in the table below:

Posted: April 16 2013 at 22:19 | IP Logged

Hi Wayne,

I think I wrote a post mentioning the idea of drilling a hole in the bulkhead.  I also suggested using an old PAR type bilge pump to keep the area dry.  And I had a third solution which involved  using a very small centrifugal bilge pump of the type used for aereating fish tanks to keep the area dry.  I bought the small bilge pump but never installed it because it was a bitch to get it into the very limited space next to the tank.

But I never followed through on any of those ideas and apparently no one else did either.  Procrastination is the path to hell!

In rethinking the idea what I should have done was to slide a metal plate in between the tank and bulkhead to protect the tank and then drill.  I didn't know it at the time but I later found an access path to the area between the tank and bulkhead.

Pete37