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Grey Goose
"Deckhand"




Joined: October 25 2009
Posts: 200
Posted: August 11 2011 at 14:11 | IP Logged Quote Grey Goose

Emory

My condolences on your loss.  It looks like the by smile on your face your are taking it in good spirits.  Hope you will be up and running soon.

I mean this with only good intentions, I am enjoying the photos.  Please keep them coming. 

Allen

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David Ross
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Joined: January 02 2007
Posts: 452
Posted: August 11 2011 at 15:39 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Tony and Vicki,

Thanks for the ordering info for the Chris Craft emblem.



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Fantasy
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Joined: November 30 2006
Posts: 324
Posted: August 11 2011 at 21:08 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Bennett,

FYI, when we rebuilt my port engine we used two simple A-frames and a boom.  The legs of the a-frames were 2x6's and the boom was two sistered 2x8's.  The boom was through bolted through the a-frames with support scraps underneath.  The a-frames were screwed into the salon deck for stability.  On the aft end, 4x4 supports were put under the deck framing and rested on the stringer on the inboard side and on the saddle tank on the outboard side (with a piece of plywood to spread the weight.  The forward a-frame was over the engine room bulkhead and needed no additional support.

Two chain hoists were used to lift and manuever the engine to separate and block the gear and raise it high enough to remove the pan and get to the crank and bearings, several inches above the stringer.  Before lifting the block, all of the bolt on parts were removed including the cylinder head.  As you can see from the picture below, parts were everywhere and it was not a happy time.

John



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"Fantasy"
460 Chris Craft Constellation
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Bennett
"Deckhand"




Joined: July 02 2007
Posts: 121
Posted: August 11 2011 at 21:55 | IP Logged Quote Bennett

Hi John,

Looks like a lot of work; all the oily/dirty parts quickly fill up
all available space. Did you have to pull the transmission and
did you do the work yourself?

Thanks for the picture.

Bennett

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Fantasy
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Posted: August 11 2011 at 23:00 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Hi Bennett,

Yes, an awful lot of hard work.  Like you, all of my engine rebuilds were on gas engines, so I found an independent with a lot of Detroit experience who was willing to work with me.  We both turned wrenches and I did all of the grunt work but his expertise was essential.  Yes, the transmission needed to be backed out in order to tear down the rest of the engine.  (The crank is not removed to replace the main bearings, they are rolled in place. )  Keep in mind that I have an in-line 6-71 and not the 6v-92 but they are very similar in design.

My rebuild may have been more complicated than Emory's in that it was caused by a timing gear failure (very rare by all accounts) which was determined to be caused by a collision with submerged debris, 8 years earlier!  As a result, I needed a brand new cylinder head, new turbo and 3 new timing gears in addition to the normal rebuild parts and cylinder kits.  The cost was about $25k with my labor, but the good news is that Boat US Insurance (God bless them) covered the loss, less 85% depreciation on the parts.  Net, net, it cost me $12.5k for a rebuilt engine and I got a great hands-on learning experience.

John



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"Fantasy"
460 Chris Craft Constellation
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eshover
"Deckhand"




Joined: July 02 2011
Posts: 205
Posted: August 14 2011 at 15:52 | IP Logged Quote eshover

Mr. Hug has stated that the crank looks good.  Not  certain what his plan is regarding the mains.  Right now, I am assuming that the rods will be replaced but not the mains.  Keep in mind, this engine was previously rebuilt prior to my buying and the bearing would have only about 400 hrs. on them.  Based on what the rod bearing looked like, I'm in good shape there.

May have to wait on the seal due to schedules on mechanics part. 

I spent Friday and Saturday cleaning the head surfaces and oil pan.  And let me tell you, cleaning that oil pan without removing it from under the engine!  Of course the gasket was glues between the pan and gasket to facilitate installation back in 2001 (or so).  A regular gasket tool would not get the job done.  I have to use a long-handled razor blade scrapper and could get about 1" or 2" of gasket material off before the blade would brake.  I went through 20+ blades!

Very frustrating but it's done and now it's up to the mechanic to put her together and we'll see how she runs!

Emory

 



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"Southern Charm"
1986 Connie 500
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eshover
"Deckhand"




Joined: July 02 2011
Posts: 205
Posted: August 16 2011 at 13:31 | IP Logged Quote eshover

Mechanic discovered the crank was a reman and turned to 10 under, so bearings had to be special ordered.  Hope they came in yesterday and work will begin on Wednesday.

Here is what a clean airbox should look like:

Cleaning the oil pan was more painful than the airboxes!  Trying to get to the gasket surfaces with any kind of scraper (with leverage) was very difficult.  I took me hours to get the surface clean:

Hope none of you go through the year I've had so far.

Allen - thanks for stopping by on Sunday.  You have one of the cutest little girls I've ever met (next to my daughter when she was her age!

On another topic: I called Mini Craft in Florida to place an order for some gel coat.  What cost me about $63 a quart several season ago is now $134 !!  When I commented on the price the owner, Paul, said that it goes up almost on a daily basis.  He also stated that 3 years ago he had six salesmen and a total staff of 30 employees.  Today, he employees 6 people....TOTAL!  Main Reasons?: EPA over-regulations which is driving up the cost of everything and the economy.  People are not fixing the small damages, nicks, dings, etc.  He also stated that after being in business for 40 YEARS, he will close his doors if this administration is put back in power for another term. 

You cannot believe how many small businessmen I'm hearing this same story from.  I am 64 years old and have never seen my country in such an mess.

But that's just my opinion.

Emory



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"Southern Charm"
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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
Posts: 2317
Posted: August 16 2011 at 22:17 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

Yeah, I had to replace three batteries in my Connie last week.  Getting them was no problem.  But finding someone to install them was.  I used to do it myself but have been having some hip joiint problems so lifting a 140 lb. battery was out of the question.

Normally, I'd call on the boatyard for that kind of help.  But the yard is working on a skeleton staff these days because of the slowdown in business and didn't have anyone available to do a battery installation.  It took me five days to find someone and by that time I had about a foot of water in the bilge.  Had to spend an hour pumping out before I could even start the battery switch.

I've noticed quite a drop in the number of Connies for sale.  I think the problem is that while people want to sell they don't want to give their Connies away so they are just hanging on to them in hopes that better times will raise the prices.  But in the meantime they aren't repairing them, improving them or using them. And they've lost hope of selling them at a decent price so they aren't even advertising them.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on August 16 2011 at 22:19


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David Ross
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Posts: 452
Posted: August 16 2011 at 22:40 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Pete,

What is leaking that would give you a foot of water in the bilge????



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Pete37
"Commander"




Joined: November 12 2006
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Posted: August 16 2011 at 23:06 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Dave,

I wondered that too.  Five days is 120 hours. The pump took about 45 minutes to pump out at 15 gpm.  So that's 675 gallons.  In 120 hours that's a leakage rate of 5.6 gph or 135 gpd. The stuffing boxes leak at about 2.88 gpd (0.12 gph) for the pair so the stuffing box leakage is negligible. 

The bilge pumps are 1500 gph units so 5.6 gph leakage would only run them 5.6 x 3600/1500 = 13.4 seconds per hour.  With piping inefficiencies it might be 20 seconds per hour.  That's only about one bilge pump cycle per hour.  Not a very high leakage rate but if it goes on for five days it adds up to 675 gallons.

I'm going to try to track down the source of leakage but with the relatively low rate it may be hard. 

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on August 17 2011 at 00:35


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Pete37
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Posted: August 18 2011 at 05:48 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

Subject: Bilge Pump Problems

Iíve concluded that the foot of water in the bilge was due to an unusual set of circumstances that isnít likely to happen again.  One of the two house batteries had a bad cell which shorted out.  And since the two house batteries were in parallel it took the other battery down with it leaving me with no house battery bank.  It's kind of a freak occurrence.  Iíve never seen it happen before.  Anyway, with no house batteries the bilge pumps didnít work and in five days I wound up with a foot of water in the bilge.

Apparently the leak rate was about 6 gph which gave me 675 gallons of water in the bilge after five days. I know that leaks from the stuffing boxes are considerably less than 1 gph so that means I must have some other leaks.  The question is ďAre these leaks dangerous?Ē

A 6 gph leak would only cause one of the 1500 gph bilge pumps to run for about 20 seconds per hour.  In the five days (120 hours) that would be about 40 minutes and at 5 amps the pump would burn only 3.35 ampere hours (0.67 ampere hours per day).  If fully charged, the 450 ampere hour house battery bank should run the bilge pump for nearly 335 days before even reaching half charge.  So even if the battery charger quits the house battery bank would keep the bilge pump going for months.  A 6 gph leak is dangerous only if the bilge pumps loose power.

There are five bilge pumps on a Connie and it is unlikely that more than one would break down at any given time.  The other four should easily keep the boat afloat.  The weak point in the bilge pump system is the house battery bank.  The two batteries in the house battery are in parallel and if a cell in either battery shorts out it could shut down the entire bank leaving you with no power for your bilge pumps.  This causes no immediate problem but if you are on vacation for two weeks and have a 6 gph leak rate you could find your boat on the bottom before you return. 

A 6 gph leak rate is about equivalent to one bilge pump cycle per hour.  So if your boat pumps more than once per hour make sure your house battery bank is in good shape.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on August 18 2011 at 05:51


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Delaware Jim
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Joined: December 27 2006
Posts: 381
Posted: August 18 2011 at 08:20 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Pete et. al.,

I too had a shorted cell in a house battery a few weeks ago that prompted replacement of the two house batteries.

I have dripless shaft logs on my boat, so do not see any water from that location.  My sumps almost always seem to have a bit of water, but takes many days to fill enough to start the pump.  I know rainwater enters through the anchor chain opening and maybe there is another similar leak I'm not aware of (yet).

At 6 GPH into the bilge, I agree that is 'way too much for shaft logs, or even rudder posts, but you have not mentioned checking these yet.  I'd suspect some sort of fresh water leak, but I do not believe you leave a charged fresh water hose attached when you are not on board.  Do you leave an AC unit on for humidity control when not aboard?  Last year I had a broken thru hull on one AC that dumped water into the bilge when operating... a possibility to consider/check out.

Finally, I agree with your logic re the pump energy use, but question the exact numbers.  A "1500 GPH" pump gets that rating with no discharge hose and no head pressure (lift).  In a typical installation, you have a couple of feet of head pressure, plus the friction of the hose (often corrugated tubing which really slows down flows).  The "1500 GPH" pump may only pump 500 gph  or so "as installed". Accordingly, the figures may be off considerably; however the conclusion is still sound.  A set of fully charged house batteries should keep a bilge dry for at least several months without attention or recharge.

To Emory:

Hang in there... the end is in sight!

Jim

 

 



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"Still In the Mood"
1985 Chris Craft 500 Constellation
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eshover
"Deckhand"




Joined: July 02 2011
Posts: 205
Posted: August 18 2011 at 11:11 | IP Logged Quote eshover

Tom Hug has been on board for a couple of days now and
we hope to "button up" today. I'm hopeful. I am trying not
to complain or cry to much. So many people out here
suffering right now, complaining about this just doesn't feel
right.
I have a friend who is 24 years old with a wife and new
baby and has been diagnosed with 4th stage cancer. Kind
of puts things in perspective, if you know what I mean. I
hope and pray that God will bless him with a recovery.
This is really hard on his family.

These are just boats.

Emory

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"Southern Charm"
1986 Connie 500
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Bellavita3
"Seaman"




Joined: July 28 2008
Posts: 63
Posted: August 18 2011 at 13:46 | IP Logged Quote Bellavita3

Hi All,

Maybe it's just me, but if I had a foot of water in my bilge, I'd be spending a little less time calculating GPH and battery amp hours and a whole lot more time trying to figure out where the water was coming from.  It's pretty simple, boats that don't fill up with water don't sink.  None of the calculations are really going to matter when the boat is sitting on the bottom.  Just my humble opinion.  I hope everyone is enjoying their summer.  We're off to Catalina Island tomorrow morning.

Regards,
Ron


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Bella Vita
1985 Chris Craft 460
Laguna Niguel, CA
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David Ross
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Posted: August 18 2011 at 17:34 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Pete,

I sure would not be comfortable with your leak (leaks???) situation reagrdless if you feel it accumulated "due to an unusual set of circumstances". Also, I would not find much comfort in thinking that the bilge pumps will take care of it. If I had that amount of water flow in my boat I would consider it dangerous!!! I'll say it again, get those leaks checked out and  keep the bilge dry and bright white....  



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Pete37
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Joined: November 12 2006
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Posted: August 19 2011 at 01:17 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Jim, Emory, Ron and Dave,

Subject:  Bilge Pump Problems

Jim:  I checked my shaft logs a couple weeks ago and adjusted them to 20 drops per minute each which is the rate recommended by one of the packing manufacturers.  That works out to a total of 2.88 gpd.  They may have shifted some since then but thatís probably about what their leak rate is today.  Thatís only 0.12 gph which is only 2.1% of the 5.6 gph estimated.  So I can probably ignore the shaft logs.

I havenít checked the rudder shaft logs yet but itís on my list.  Iíll also recheck the engine shaft logs.  They may have changed.  My Connie is kept under a shed so we can probably discount rain.  I donít leave ACs on when Iím not aboard so any accumulation from that source would have to have happened while I was aboard.  Seems unlikely I would have missed that but Iíll recheck.  I never attach the fresh water system to shore water and the capacity of the fresh water tank is only about 160 gallons so that canít be the problem.

If the pump were operating at 100% efficiency it would take only 14 seconds to pump out 5.6 gallons.  I increased the time to 20 seconds (42%) to account for piping losses.  Perhaps it should be more.  However, any way you figure it the house battery bank should keep up with a 5.6 gph leak for months; and, if the battery bank is hooked up to shore powered charger, forever.

A 5.6 gph leak rate isnít much.  Itís only 0.093 gpm or 1.49 cups per minute. In order to get a visual check on the size of the leak, I took my wifeís measuring cup and experimented under the kitchen sink. A 1.49 cup per minute stream from the faucet which translates to 5.6 gph and 134 gpd is a stream less than 1/16Ē (0.0625Ē) in diameter and just above the point where the stream transitions from distinguishable droplets to a steady stream. I checked this number against the US Navy Salvorís Handbook Flooding Tables and found that the diameter should be about 0.052Ē.  Since these two numbers are pretty close Iím going to use my ďkitchen tableĒ number as adequate for the accuracy of these calculations. Both numbers are smaller than the head of the average sewing pin.

Iím going to start a serious leak search tomorrow.  But as I mentioned this 5.6 gph leak is going to be difficult to find.  Iím going to be trying to find a pinhead sized leak in a 54,000 lb. 50í long motoryacht haystack.

Emory:  Glad to hear that your engine repairs are progressing so swiftly.  Hope that translates into lower costs.

I have a friend who was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer three years ago.  Heís still in pretty good health and living comfortably.  Heís somewhere in his 70s.  So thereís hope for your friend.  Complete cures are even possible.

Ron:  As Iíve said above Iím going to start a serious leak search tomorrow.  But a 5.6 gph pinhead sized leak isnít going to sink the boat as long as the house battery bank has power.  And the battery bank now has new batteries.  Itís also connected to a shore powered battery charger.  Normally, I check the boat every few days.  So the possibility of a repeat of this problem seems remote.

The reason I check the numbers is to get an idea of the size of the problem.  I want to know whether Iíve got a gusher or a dribble.  As it turns out itís slightly larger than a dribble but enormously smaller than a gusher.

I suspect that most Connies have leaks of this size but never notice them as long as their house battery banks are working.  The moral of this incident is that if your house battery bank fails (unlikely but possible) attend to getting some sort of power to the bilge pumps right away.  Donít assume that you can let this problem linger for a week.

Reducing the leaks is also important and Iíve been planning on replacing the stuffing box packing with Gortex packing. However, it hasnít been done yet.   That should help but it doesnít seem that the shaft logs are the problem.  Unfortunately, the leak isnít likely to show up as a single 1/16Ē stream of water.  Itís more likely to be a number of things.  I suspect loose thru-hulls may contribute although I donít know of any at the moment. Boat US says that thru- hulls are the most common cause of sinking. Iíll be checking them this week.  The above waterline thru-hulls never got close to the waterline so they donít seem to be the problem either.

Iíve been checking into bilge pump counters as a tool to find the leaks.  They start as low as $65 and go as high as $260.  I think Iíll start with the $65 model.

Dave:

I think you are making a bit of a ďTempest in a TeapotĒ over a pinhead sized leak.  There is no indication that 675 gallons of water rushed into the hull in the course of a few minutes or hours.  They leaked in over a period of five days (120 hours) or perhaps a bit longer.  The leak rate was about 5.6 gph which one of my Rule 1500 bilge pumps could handle in 20 seconds of pumping per hour.  I know what the problem was; the house batteries were dead.  And new batteries have been installed to solve the problem.

All: I think that the biggest problem in explaining this is that no one can believe that a pinhead sized leak could cause 675 gallons (a foot) of water to be in the bilge. At first I didn't either.  The attitude is that "It must be something bigger to cause that much water".  But the numbers show that the pinhead sized leak does cause that much water to accumulate over five days.  I've checked them a dozen times.  And now that the batteries have been replaced the problem is gone.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on August 19 2011 at 04:41


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David Ross
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Posted: August 19 2011 at 10:31 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Pete,

I feel your leaks are more then a "pinhead sized leak", but lets just leave it at you are locating and fixing the problem, which obviously is the right thing to do, before this discussion goes the wrong way.

My experience with a rudder leak is the water ends up in the bow area of the bilge. You can tell which, or if both, are leaking by checking the drains under the galley hatch. First look under the master state room bed side bottom drawers to see if any water is in the rudder area. Wet vac any water out and put a paper towel on the rudder nut and one or two larger 3M sponges in the forward area from the paper towel. That should control the leak to find out if you also have leaks elsewhere.

Once you have a dry and bright white bilge, finding a future leak, even if it is "a pinhead sized leak in a 54,000 lb. 50' motoryacht haystack", you will be able to locate it very quickly.

 



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Pete37
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Posted: August 19 2011 at 10:55 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Dave,

Yeah, in spite of the compartmentization most of the bilge water seems to wind up in the forward bilge area.  And as I said, no one can believe that a pinhead sized leak could cause a one foot accumulation of water in the bilge.  That's because we are so used to having our bilge pumps take care of everything.  But when they aren't working the bilge water builds up quickly. 

That's probably the most important thing this incident brings out.  If your house battery bank goes down you need to replace it or hook the bilge pumps to another source of power quickly.  By quickly, I don't mean in minutes or hours but certainly within a couple days.

Looks like we've got a couple of good cruising days coming so I'm going to use the boat.  The "Great Pinhole Leak Search" can wait a couple days.  But I'll be keeping a close watch on the bilge.

Pete37



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Fantasy
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Posted: August 19 2011 at 12:12 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Pete,

I don't know how you rigged your pump before the new batteries were installed but any current drop could dramatically affect the pump's efficiency.  In that case, the actual volume would be considerably less than your estimate.  Was the foot of water visible in the engine room or just the forward bilge?

John



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"Fantasy"
460 Chris Craft Constellation
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Pete37
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Posted: August 19 2011 at 20:58 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi John,

Subject: Rigging of the Pumps

The rigging of my pumps was the standard CC factory setup as shown in the CC drawings.  I haven't changed anything in the setup and the CC setup is just about the same as in every other boat I've seen or owned. The setup with the new batteries is the same as it was with the old. 

The problem was that the old house batteries after 9 years of use were dead.  The bilge pumps were not running below maximum output; they were not running at all because they had no power.

The engine room bilge was full of water up to a level just below the tops of the battery boxes.  Other compartments also had high bilge water but I didn't measure it.

Took the boat out again today for the second time after the battery incident,  No water in the bilge and the pumps are working fine

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on August 19 2011 at 21:06


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Fantasy
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Posted: August 19 2011 at 22:02 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Wow! That's a lot of water.

I was actually asking how you temporarily rigged your pump since you had dead batteries.  You said you dewatered for 45 minutes before you put in the new batteries.

John



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Pete37
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 00:12 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi John,

Subject: Temporary Rigging of Batteries

The positive +12 volt terminal of the starboard battery of the house battery bank broke off.  I think this was because the the cell it was attached to had shorted out and had melted off the connection to the +12V terminal.

A check of the house battery bank voltage on the console showed it was very low (6 to 8 volts).  Since the house bank batteries are wired in parallel I just removed the cables that put the batteries in parallel.  That left me with a house battery bank with only one battery (the port battery). The voltage then came up to about 10 volts. But it was enough to power most of the critical items on the boat.  With the engines on the alternators should have started to recharge the port battery.

I then returned to the dock and assumed that the battery charger (now plugged into shore power) would bring the port house battery bank battery up to full voltage.  But apparently it didn't because when I came back five days later the house battery bank voltage was nearly zero.  The short in the starboard battery may have damaged the port battery as well.

When I replaced the batteries, I first pumped out the bilge with an AC powered dewatering pump I got from the marina. It took 45 minutes at 15 gpm (675 gallons) to dewater the engine room bilge.  I know the pump rate was 15 gpm because I put the hose into a 5 gallon bucket and measured the time necessary to fill the bucket.

There was also some water in the forward bilge that I pumped out but I didn't time that.  However it was much less water.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on August 20 2011 at 00:28


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Delaware Jim
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 08:09 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Pete,

Water almost to the top of the engine room battery boxes in only 5 days is not a "pinhole" leak as you characterized, but a major issue in my book!  Whether it was 500 gallons, 1000 gallons or whatever, no Connie should have that much water in the bilge in only 5 days, even without any bilge pumps operating.  What may be "double trouble" is your statement you had the battery charger on the single port house battery in that 5 day period... the charger alone should have powered the bilge pumps, even if the battery was dead as indicated. I recently did this for a week until I changed out my batteries... As the charger did not power the pumps - now you have two separate issues to deal with.

FIX THE WATER LEAK(S) PDQ, then look at the12V circuits.

Jim



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Pete37
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 13:55 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Jim,

A pinhead sized leak produces 1.49 cups per minute.  That's 0.094 gpm or 5.63 gph or 135 gpd or 675 gallons in 5 days.  Now what is there about that which you can't understand?

Get your wife's measuring cup and adjust the kitchen faucet for a 1/16" stream.  BTW, a pinhead (not pinhole) is about 1/16".  Then measure how long it takes to fill the cup.  It should be about 60/1.49 = 40 seconds.

The bilge pumps get their power from the house battery bank.  The charger maxes out at about 80 amps.  What's the voltage of 80 amps across a dead short?  The charger certainly would have powered the bilge pumps if it hadn't been attached to a dead battery.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on August 20 2011 at 20:36


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Delaware Jim
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 20:17 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Pete,

I don't give a d_ _ _ what you want to call it (a "pinhole leak"), or how you rationalize it with volumetric measurements, I (and others) believe a foot of water in the bilge over five day time is a serious issue requiring prompt attention. Whether the bilge pumps can handle it is another question, but why would you want to "bet your boat" on that???

As the the charger not powering the pumps across the "dead shorted" battery, if the charger was actually putting out 80 amps into a true dead short, the battery would have probably boiled dry and melted or exploded from the heat in 5 days...  as you know, there are a number of reasons why a lead acid battery will not hold a charge, but not be a"dead short" as you describe. If it really were a "dead short" maybe the foot of water around the battery actually helped cool the battery and prevented the meltdown. 

If the charger was operating and there is 12V on the battery posts, the bilge pumps should have worked when the water got high enough as the house systems load are connected at that point.  Could you have inadvertantly disconnected the house load wires from the battery terminals as you switched wiring onto only the port battery?  Otherwise, I believe the pumps should have worked with the charger on...  mine did.

Jim



Edited by Delaware Jim on August 20 2011 at 20:20


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Pete37
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 21:04 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Jim,

Subject: Pinhead Sized Leaks

Let's solve this problem in stages. 

A:  Do you agree that if you had a 5.6 gph leak and had the bilge pumps turned off you would accumulate 675 gallons of bilge water in five days?

B: Do you agree that a leak producing a stream about 1/16" in diameter would have a flow of about 5.6 gph?

C: Do you agree that the size of the average size sewing pinhead is about 1/16''?

If you agree to A, B and C then the only question is whether the bilge pumps had sufficient power to run.

Pete37



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TStellato
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Posted: August 20 2011 at 22:29 | IP Logged Quote TStellato


On a lighter note......

Spending the night up the Sassafras River tonight and saw Good Spirits today as we came in.  Good looking boat and funny when you see a Connie going by, and say "great looking boat" and then realize ....yeah we are great looking boats and we do stand out among the crowd.  We all may be older, but perhaps we will make it to the "classic" status and retain some sort of value lol!

Dave she looked great on plane as we came into the river.  We putted from Annapolis on totally flat waters for the bay.  Great beautiful day on the water...  Tomorrow we are headed to the C&D.  After that who knows....Philly or Cape May.

Vicki


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Delaware Jim
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 09:04 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Pete,

Please re-read the first paragraph of my note from last nght:

"I don't give a d_ _ _ what you want to call it (a "pinhole leak"), or how you rationalize it with volumetric measurements, I (and others) believe a foot of water in the bilge over five day time is a serious issue requiring prompt attention. Whether the bilge pumps can handle it is another question, but why would you want to "bet your boat" on that???"

It is your boat - I'll not discuss any more.

Jim

 

 



Edited by Delaware Jim on August 21 2011 at 09:06


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Grey Goose
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 12:24 | IP Logged Quote Grey Goose

There is no haystack. I'm sure a 500 is very similar to a 501. †Starting
at the bow underwater thru-hulls and fittings. †Holding tank pump out,
forward head, a/c pump, generator intake, engine intakes,
transducers, stuffing boxes, center head, struts, rudder logs and
exhaust (I think I got it all) †It can't take an hour to check all under
water fittings to see if one or more is leaking. †A cup and a half of
water per minute is a lot for a fiberglass hull and "should be easy to
find".

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Pete37
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 13:51 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Jim,

Sorry you don't want to discuss this problem in an orderly manner.  As an engineer, I dont rationalize; I analyze. 

A foot of water in the bilge is a serious matter and it did get immediate attention.  Within one hour of the time it was discovered the boat was pumped out.  And within two hours after that a new set of house batteries had been installed to correct the problem. 

Since the new batteries have been installed, the bilge is dry and everything related bilge pump operation is working normally.  The boat has been out a couple times and no repitition of the problem has occurred.  The problem appears to have been solved.

I had expected some water in the bilge and that's why I had the batteries on hand..  I just hadn't expected that much.  However, the calculations showed that the amount of water in the bilge was consistant with a 1/16" trickle of water over five days.  Therefore, I don't think a panicky search for "monsters under the bed" is required. 

But I'll keep my eyes open for anything abnormal. A 5.6 gpm leak rate though not dangerous is a bit high so I'll try to find the leak and plug it.

Pete37

 



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Pete37
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 13:57 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Allen,

Yeah, I'm aware that I have a small leak.  But I don't think I have the gusher Jim keeps looking for.  So I'll be looking for the leak.  Not sure how easy it will be to find such a small leak.

Pete37



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eshover
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 18:32 | IP Logged Quote eshover

Moving on..........several years ago I replaced the
starboard raw water hose from the strainer to the pump. I
recall that the installation of the hose at the copper fitting
was extremely difficult and even with the use of a heat gun
and soap, I was barely able to get it on the fitting with
enough hose to allow double clamps.
This hose (as well as the port hose) requires replacement
once again and I don't look forward to fitting the hose up
onto the copper fitting.
The hose that is on there is marine wet exhaust hose with
an inside diameter of 2 1/2".
Out of curiosity, I utilized my digital micrometer and
discovered the copper tube is 2.626 outside diameter. This
makes the fit-up very difficult.
Any trick to this I'm not aware of? Is there a hose slightly
larger that should be used?
Just curious.

Emory

BTW - engine is completed and running well but not sea
trialed due to weather late this afternoon. Mechanic will
sea trial on Thursday morning weather permitting.

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eshover
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 18:57 | IP Logged Quote eshover

Shieldflex II makes a 2 5/8" i.d. hose. 2.626" is about as
close to 2 5/8" as you can get (if my ruler is correct).
Anyone who is on their boat is will be on their boat, please
look at the diameter hose you have. There is a possibility the
hoses on my boat were incorrect to begin with.

Emory

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Pete37
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 19:46 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

Subject:  Leak Problem Solved

Well, the "Great Pinhead Leak Search" is over.  I found the problem.  The starboard stuffing box was leaking about a cup per minute.  That's 0.0625 gpm or 3.75 gph which is  67% of the 5.6 gph leak I was looking for.  I had it tightened up to about 22 drops per minute a few weeks ago but apparently it shifted.  The port stuffing box also shifted but it went from 22 drops per minute to only a couple drops per minute.

I still have 1.85 gpm unaccounted for but I'm not going to do anything about it for the moment.  About a month ago I bought some Goretex packing which I planned to use to restuff the stuffing boxes.  But Bennett recommended a better packing so I returned it.  Didn't get around to ordering the new packing but I will now.  I'll check the leakage again after the new packing is in.

The whole episode shows that even a tiny leak can produce an awful lot of bilge water in five days if the bilge pumps aren't working.

Pete37



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Fly Bridge
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 20:10 | IP Logged Quote Fly Bridge

"Mr". Emory:    Sliding the new hoses (or old) can be made easier to fit onto the the fitting, by placing a SMALL amount of lube grease, onto the fitting, and/or, inside the hose,  then tighten, FIRMLY.  Ask your mechanic, if you desire for his approval. 

Removing old hoses, can been accomplished with inserting a APPROPRIATE-sized FLAT screwdriver between the hose and fitting. And then work screwdriver around the fitting, as you spray some WD-40 into the space between hose and fitting, as you work your way around the fitting, to get hose off.  If you feel more comfortable using a PHILLIPS screwdriver, that is ok also.  BUT, of course a person must take care not to cut, nor stretch the old hose beyond it's limits.  Hose may or may not, crack or split. But if hose does, then it most probably, would have been not far from replacement  anyway.  I have removed, and replaced many hoses, in this manner.  Just my thoughts.   

Fly Bridge  Dan  (Catalina forum).



Edited by Fly Bridge on August 21 2011 at 20:28


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Delaware Jim
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 20:19 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Emory,

I just checked and I have Shields 2 3/4" hose on both of my engines, each end double clamped.

 

I am tickeld the engine is now completed and running.  Pls let us know the results of the sea trial. 

Jim



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Pete37
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Posted: August 21 2011 at 21:45 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Emory,

I checked with my vernier calipers and the pipe the hose goes on is definitely 2.625 OD.  The hose says Seaflex which I think is a Shields brand but I haven't been able to find an exact match on the web.  Seaflex now appears to be a Japanese brand name.  Don't know the relationship (if any) with Shields.

The Shieldsflex II Series 250 with the 2.625" ID looks like the best fit.  The 2.75" ID would work but it might be a little loose

Congratulations on completing (We hope) your engine overhaul!

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on August 21 2011 at 21:54


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David Ross
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Posted: August 22 2011 at 09:51 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Toni and Vicki, Pete and all,

Thanks for the kind words, Tony and Vickie. Wish I had known you were going to be in the area we could have met up. We enjoyed a great cruise and ended up anchoring out Saturday but didn't spend the night since they were calling for a possible severe storm later that night or early am (it did come thru). We stopped at Skipjack Marina for a snack and drink. Bewteen our anchoring and stop at Skipjack and returning to our slip at the Sassafras Marina, we had to be near you. Did you try to call us on the radio? We plan to be back to the boat this Friday, so if you are still cruising, and will be in the area let me know. Enjoy your run!

Just an update to all. Since the port turbo section was replaced last year there has been no soot on the transom. Guess I should knock on wood (fiberglass?) before saying that. It has been a delight not to have to clean all that mess off!! Hope it stays that way. So far it has been a superb boating year.

Emory, glad you are getting the engine back together. Good luck on the sea trial and hope you enjoy the rest of the boating season and many more without problems. You've more than earned it!

Pete, once you get that total dry bilge you WILL have a safer boat. You will be able to spot just about any leak and find the source in minutes. What starts as a "pinhole" leak could be a warning of something major getting ready to go that even good batteries and pumps could not keep up with. How could you see this warning with your current situation? Glad you will be joining the dry bilge club. Think of all the analyzing, calculation and mathematics time you will save that can be applied to real boating.

Sorry all, forgot to increase the font size for this post.



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David Ross
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Posted: August 22 2011 at 18:23 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Emory and with a note to all at the end,

I had the same strainer to pump hoses replaced three weeks ago. I had the yard do the work due to another project I was doing and I was leaving the next morning for a ten day cruise. The workman had both hoses off in ten minutes and came back later and  installed new ones which somewat more time. I know he took my old ones to the shop to cut the new ones to proper length from stock. Not sure what size or brand he used, but will check when I go back this week end. He did say they came off easily. I will also ask him if there is any trick to getting them off and especially the new ones back on. You'll probably have it worked out by then and your new hoses on.

By the way, I noticed moisture at the bottom of the sea strainer, then  discovered a very slight crack under the top hose at the fitting. The hose looked new (I thought it was replaced when I had all the engine hoses replaced, but obviously was not). It was dry rotted inside. That hose gets leaned on a lot when trying to get to and do various work behind the engine. Of course I replaced both port and starboard hoses.

Note to all: The sea strainer hose moisture was not even a pin hole leak yet, but noticeable with a clean dry bilge. If that hose let go how would you like to depend on the bilge pumps to keep up... I don't think so! For the last time, get the bilge dry, clean and white. Again, a small leak discovered by seeing water in an usually dry bilge could  be a warning of something starting that standard on board pumps will not be able to deal with. Pete, keep at it, you'll get there. Amen.    



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eshover
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Posted: August 22 2011 at 18:25 | IP Logged Quote eshover

Thanks Dave. We are sea trialing on Thursday.

To all: I may have found a LOT of my oil pollution problem
in the engine room. We found that BOTH oil lines (in/out)
had pin holes in them! I have been blaming the rear seal
(which I think still requires changing) but the volume wasn't
making sense! We all know what "pin holes" can do, right
Pete? Tom found the "out" line was bad first and replaced
it, but today I drained the raw water out of the engine and
replaced it with antifreeze and then started the engine. I
let the engine warm up a bit and then shut it down. I
dropped down in the engine room and saw oil on the filter
mount plate and stringer. I re-started the engine and took
a very close look-see and, VOILA!, a stream of oil pouring
out of the "in" line!
So on Thursday morning a new line goes on and we sea
trial.

Will keep everyone posted on what she runs like. Also
having the bottom cleaned tomorrow, so I'm hoping for
good results.

It will only be able to run the boat to 2100 at first due to
break-in period.

Emory

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