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Pete37
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Joined: November 12 2006
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 22:51 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Bennett,

Stainless steel for $800 to $1000?  That's cheaper than cast iron!

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 22 2011 at 22:52


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Bennett
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 22:54 | IP Logged Quote Bennett

First of all, Pete, I was not being sarcastic - just discussing the
topic!

Your picture speaks for itself....rusty exposed cast iron. Its
also strange that your turbo locked up at the same time your
riser failed....if its soot, then the riser has nothing to do with it.

Finally, soot is greatest under load, i.e., accelerating - not
while idling or running under normal or light loading.

Bennett

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Grey Goose
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 23:07 | IP Logged Quote Grey Goose

Ok, I was going to let this go. But, Pete you were the one who
posted a while ago that you spent over $20k when your elbow let go
and your engines ingested the exhaust.   I do preventive maintainence
so that I hopefully don't have to write that check. Maybe a little
excessive, but that's just me. You seem not to have learned from your
lack of maintenance before and let your exhaust elbows go untouched
for 8 years. You should feel lucky your getting off for under 3 grand.
Cast iron elbows should visually checked from the inside at least every
4 years. I would have stainless, but haven't been able find any that
will fit on a 501 (stainless are a little longer for some reason and my
mufflers are tom close). So I will continue to remove them (and while
they are off, clean and paint them) annually with my glass beader.

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Pete37
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Posted: June 22 2011 at 23:49 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Bennett,

First, The riser didn't fail, it was the turbo that failed because the riser jammed the turbo exhaust rotor.  But the riser is 8 years old and it's water cooling passages are a mess so I'm going to chuck it.

Second, the turbo failed while the boat was running at a constant steady speed.

Third, this failure has nothing to do with a light coat of soot.  Whatever it was it was quite substantial.  You could feel the blockage when you tried to rotate the exhaust rotor with your hand.  Once the turbo was removed from the riser most  of the blockage was gone.  But the turbo still isn't running as smoothly as it should so we are going to have it overhauled. We feel the blockage may have damaged the bearings.

Fourth, I'm quite surprised that the price you mention for the stainless steel risers is about the same as for cast iron risers.  If you can really get them that cheap I'll order a pair.

Fifth, I've seen that purple color in the surfaces of a lot of overheated systems. It isn't necessarily rust.

Sixth, if Allen needs a glass beader to clean his risers there must be more to it than a light coat of soot.

Seventh, I'm not trying to be sarcastic.  I'm just trying to make sense out of a lot of seemingly contradictory statements.

Pete37



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Grey Goose
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 00:08 | IP Logged Quote Grey Goose

Eighth. If the turbo didn't fail would you wait for something else to fail
before doing the maintaince that you preach to others. Or should we
do it your way and just fix as needed. Btw, you should do the other
engine.

Nineth. Read my post. "Nearly no carbon or rust"

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Pete37
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 01:06 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Allen,

Yes my first riser failure cost $20K but it was an entirely different type of failure.  Ever since, I've been extremely cautious about any signs of abnormality in the exhaust system.  And because of this we caught the riser problem this time before any serious damage was done. 

In this case it was not the riser that failed it was the turbo but the turbo failure was caused by the riser.  This was the only surprise.  Of course the riser has to be replaced which costs $900 plus installation labor but that was to be expected after 8 years.  It was scheduled for last year but had to be put off because of the cost.

Now that the turbo has been removed from the old riser we could probably just have installed it in the new riser.  But we don't like the way it runs so we're having it overhauled.

Your comment on removing and visually inspecting the riser every 4 years is interesting. I don't see any such statement in the J&T Manual or in the Detroit Diesel Manual.  Where did this reference come from?

 Of course there would be no point in inspecting it at 8 years (you know its toast).  But I'm not sure what you look for.  If I had removed and inspected my riser last month I wouldn't have found out anything.  There were no leaks in the riser and there still aren't. 

All I would have seen was that it was an old tired riser but still serviceable.  And the carbon buildup around the turbo exhaust fan would have been far too subtle to notice. Until this incident I had never even heard of this problem.

In fact, you can't even see the turbo exhaust fan inlet from the mouth of the riser cavity.  The picture you see was obtained by me by sticking my arm in and around the curve in the cavity and snapping a photo of the exhaust fan inlet with my digital camera.  But I'm sure this was in the 4 year inspection plan outline.

Pete37

PS: On your "8th" comment.  No if there had been no problem with the turbo we would not have messed with the riser.  Both risers were scheduled for last year but since they seemed to be OK (no leaks) and funds were tight were delayed until next spring.  We'll do the port riser this year but the starboard next year.



Edited by Pete37 on June 23 2011 at 01:28


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Fantasy
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 07:47 | IP Logged Quote Fantasy

Pete,

That riser looks like it has more flaking rust than soot, which would indicate raw water intrusion.

Looking at about 8 o'clock on the riser (2nd picture) I see what appears to be an obstruction in the water passage. This could have caused a hot spot on the riser causing it to crack. Further the nicks on the turbo blade seem to have a rust colored trail and there is a rusty buildup outside of the blades on the turbo housing, as if the blades were slinging rusty water vapor.

Given the speeds and temperatures you report, I find it hard to believe that soot from low speed running is the culprit.  I run slower, cooler and longer and have never found that much build up near the turbos and I've separated them many times.

John



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David Ross
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 10:35 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Pete,

If you recall, my stainless steel risers cost $885 each. I gave you the info which you checked into.



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Bennett
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 10:48 | IP Logged Quote Bennett

Sometimes......this forum is much more frustrating than it
should be!

Bennett

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Pete37
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 10:52 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi John,

You are looking at a 7 year old cast iron riser.  There has been considerable rusting and flaking in the water passages.  But as you can see the cooling passages remain basically clear.  So the riser isn't in really in that bad condition. It's got several years of use left in it from a cooling standpoint.

The possibility of a hot spot and crack at 8 o'clock does exist but it is well downstream of the rotor blades so it is unlikely that any moisture worked its way uphiil and against the current to the rotor blades.  We did not find any cracks but it is possible that one is covered by the rough surface of the interior of the cavity.

During engine operation the upper reaches of the riser cavity are quite hot so water in a liquid form does not exist there.  Any water vapor would be quickly carried away by the exhaust gas flow.

One should keep in mind that the gasses coming out of the turbo contain significant amounts of oil and unburned fuel.  And these fluids carry significant amounts of iron from the engine with them.  So iron stains on the rotor do not definitely mean that the iron came from the riser.

It looks to me as though the rotor blade housing is rough and is intruding on the rotation of the blades.  If the housing is steel that could be rust.  But I doubt the designers of the turbo would have been foolish enough to use ordinary steel as a housing material on such a dimensionally critical part. They might have used stainless steel but even that rusts.  Because rust is such a common problem I think they would have used something that would not rust.

When we opened the riser I did not find much if any soot.  You could touch the walls and your hands came away clean.  I stuck my arm all the way in to take the picture of the rotor and my arm and camera came out clean. And the interior of the cavity was dry with no signs of water (except at the bottom where the cooling water goes into the exhaust pipes).

Soot is definitely not the problem. It is a soft powder with no mechanical strength.  But when soot is heated and compressed it becomes carbon which is a hard mechanical substance quite capable of stopping a turbo rotor blade.

While an iron particle from the riser is a remotely possible culprit, debris from the engine and/or the turbo could also be responsible for the turbo failure.  That is why it is so important to have the turbo overhauled.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 23 2011 at 10:54


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Pete37
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 11:20 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

Allen said the following a few posts ago:

"You seem not to have learned from your lack of maintenance before and let your exhaust elbows go untouched for 8 years. You should feel lucky your getting off for under 3 grand. Cast iron elbows should visually checked from the inside at least every 4 years".

This statement is a bit insulting.

I've been checking my engine logs and think I should set things straight.  My port exhaust elbow was installed in November of 2003 but did not go into service until May of 2004. So the elbow has been in service for just slightly over seven years.  It was visually inspected from the inside in November 2008 when I did my exhaust system overhaul.  We found no problems.  That's 4 years 6 months later which is very close to the 4 years that his mythical source defines as the proper time between exhaust elbow inspections.

The problem with this is that Allen had no way of knowing how often or even if I ever checked my exhaust elbows.

Please check your facts before you blather Allen!

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 23 2011 at 11:26


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Grey Goose
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 11:36 | IP Logged Quote Grey Goose

Sorry I hurt your feelings!

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1987 Chris Craft 501
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Pete37
"Commander"




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Posted: June 23 2011 at 13:24 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

Subject: Stainless Steel Exhaust Elbows

I did some checking and Greenwater Marine Exhaust will make a stainless steel exhaust elbow for a 6V92TI for about $1800 with about a week lead time.  If anyone knows of a cheaper place let me know.  That's about twice the price of a cast iron exhaust elbow.

Pete37

PS: Final price $1825 plus shipping.



Edited by Pete37 on June 23 2011 at 16:40


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Grey Goose
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 18:16 | IP Logged Quote Grey Goose

Pete, if you are looking to save a few bucks, I have a brand new JT
3645 exhaust elbow. I'll sell it for $750.

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Pete37
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 20:06 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Allen,

Is that J&T 3645 a stainless or cast iron riser?.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 23 2011 at 20:50


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Grey Goose
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Posted: June 23 2011 at 23:24 | IP Logged Quote Grey Goose

Sorry, 3645 is for wet turbo.

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Pete37
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Posted: June 24 2011 at 09:37 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

I got a second price of $1575 for stainless steel exhaust elbows from Marine Exhaust Systems of Alabama.  Delivery in two to three weeks.  But I've decided on cast iron exhaust elbows.

Anyway this may be some useful background info for some of you who are contemplating exhaust elbow purchases.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 24 2011 at 09:38


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David Ross
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Posted: June 24 2011 at 10:28 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

Pete,

The price of risers sure has gone up! I wonder if diesel mechanics that do a lot of work can get better prices on them?



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David Ross
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Posted: June 24 2011 at 10:37 | IP Logged Quote David Ross

If riser prices continue to increase at the same rate they have in the last four years, it may be better and cheaper in the long run to install stainless ones.



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Pete37
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Posted: June 24 2011 at 17:10 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

Cast iron risers went from $625 in 2003 to $900 now (2011).  That's 1.44 times in 8 years or 4.7% per year.  Not particularly unusual.  Seven years from now when the ones you buy today wear out replacements should cost about $1,241.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 24 2011 at 17:23


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Pete37
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Posted: June 26 2011 at 12:11 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

Subject: Turbo Failure

I’ve done some more analysis of the turbo failure.  The blow up of the turbo exhaust fan below clearly shows the roughness of the fan blade housing.  And if you look at the fan blade you can see some discoloration near the edge which looks like overheating.

 

Something was definitely interfering with the rotation of the turbo.  Some of the interference may have come from the exhaust elbow but some of it was definitely caused by the turbo itself because even after the turbo was removed from the exhaust elbow it didn’t turn as freely as it should.

The clearance between the blades and the housing is only a few thousandths of an inch and the blades are rotating at up to 100,000 rpm.  The roughness you see could be rust but it seems unlikely that the turbo designers used steel for such a dimensionally critical component as the housing.  Do not put much emphasis on the colors in the photo.  The entire engine is made of steel and the exhaust gasses from the turbo contain a lot of rust.  When we get the new turbo in I’ll check the housing to see if it is ferrous.

The original turbo lasted 1400 hours and was still working well when it was damaged by the failure of the first exhaust elbow.  It might have lasted many hours more.  All the cruising was done at 2000 rpm.

The second turbo had 200 hours of 2000 rpm running but only 300 hours of low speed (1400 rpm) at breakdown (500 hours total).

A serious question which needs to be asked is “Why did the turbo fail after only 300 hours of low speed running?”  Was it just bad luck or is there a systematic reason why it broke down at 300 hours?

In order to get an idea of why turbos fail I resorted to a search of the web under a “turbocharger failure” search heading.  I got hundreds of hits but there was a common thread in those hits which was “90% of turbo failures are due to lubrication failures”.  And since we know that low speed running rapidly fouls the oil, there could be a correlation between early turbo failure and low speed running.

In the spring, when we replace the starboard exhaust elbow, we will get a chance to inspect the starboard turbo and may be able to determine whether the turbo failure was a fluke or whether it is a systematic degradation which is likely to appear in many other Connies.

An inspection of the port exhaust elbow indicated that the water passages were pretty badly rusted.  It could probably have been used for a couple more years but since it had been removed to work on the turbo we decided to replace it while the exhaust system was disassembled.  I think 7 to 8 years is about the lifetime of a cast iron exhaust elbow.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 26 2011 at 12:26


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Pete37
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 16:11 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi All,

Subject: Repairs Finished

The mechanic came this morning with the new exhaust elbows and rebuilt turbo.  Checked the turbo and found that the exhaust fan housing which some of you thought was rusted is made out of aluminum.  So it couldn't have rusted.  We installed the turbo and an exhaust elbow on the port engine and the boat is operational again.

The picture below shows some pieces of carbon retrieved from the old exhaust elbow:

The top scale on the ruler is in inches so you can see the largest carbon chip is more than an inch across.  It is more than 1/4" thick.  They are jet black and hard but granular and brittle.  This is the stuff that jammed the turbo exhaust fan.

The other exhaust elbow will be installed on the starboard engine at some time in the future.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 27 2011 at 16:26


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Bennett
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 17:06 | IP Logged Quote Bennett

Pete,

The turbo housing at the exhaust is not aluminum. The turbo
housing is cast steel; this is a requirement due to the high
heat. The intake, however, is aluminum, but this does not
touch the exhaust elbow.

Bennett

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DMark
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 17:38 | IP Logged Quote DMark

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but had a feed line to the water heater crack recently...

Am fixing the fittings right now as a stop gap, but talked it over with my Chem friend.  Found two things.  First, the PVC in our boats, the grey stuff, is good for about 25 years or for 1986'ers that's through 2011.  So, I may start seeing more of it go bad.  I replaced a another line and fitting under the galley sink last year.  However, she mentioned PEX  as a new alternative.  Apparently its flexible particularly at fittings and can be assembled without glue.  Plumber reviews I've read indicate that its more expensive but installs faster and holds up better than PVC.  PEX lifespan is about 50 years versus 25 for PVC.

Anybody else had experience with these tradeoffs?...

M


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Delaware Jim
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 20:27 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Mark,

The grey fresh waer plumbing pipe is actually PB - Polybutylene pipe, not PVC.  There is a long history of fittings issues with pb pipe; the best guesses are the chlorine in city water supply generated a problem with the acetal fittings to cause brittleness and breakage.

There has been much discussion over the years on this board about the pb pipe on our Connies.  The pipe isn't the problem, only the fittings.  In my case, I've fixed 5 fittings in the 4 years I've owned it.  The vibration of boat motion hastens the breakage.  BTW, my former home in Delaware had pb pipe, but as we were on a well without chlorine, I never had any issues in 25 years...

Unless you want to completely replumb the boat, just carry a supply of repair fittings and repair as needed whe a leak occurs.

Jim



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Pete37
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 20:33 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Mark,

First, the old grey stuff is not PVC.  It's polybutylene (PB).  I don't think they sell the old grey PB stuff anymore.  It's now the white pex pipe.  And the old grey Qest fittings have pretty much disappeared too. They've been replaced by the Sea Tech fittings.  I never had any problems with the grey PB pipe.  The problems were with the grey acetal crimp on fittings,  The old grey Qest compression type fittings were the best although they were bulky and required a wrench to assemble.  The new Sea Tech fittings are OK.  I've used them and they work but they're not as good as the old Qest fittings.

The first 18" of the output line from the water heater should be copper.  Plastic (particularly PVC) doesn't hold up at high temps.  That may be why you are having problems.  After 18" you can transition to plastic.  Don't use PVC for hot water lines.  In fact don't use PVC for anything on a boat.  It doesn't bend well and doesn't stand up to vibration.  Great for houses.  A disaster for boats.

Don't let a plumber hornswoggle you into replacing your old PB pipe.  He's just looking for business.  The PB pipe will outlast you, me, your Connie and the plumber.

I concur with Jim,  just carry a few spare fittings and fix the leaks as they occur. 

One final warning.  Never leave your boat unattended when attached to dockside water pressure.  The best thing to do is to never use dockside water.  Always use the tank water.  That way you keep the tank water turning over and that keeps it sweet,

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 27 2011 at 21:06


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Delaware Jim
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 20:50 | IP Logged Quote Delaware Jim

Pete,

I agre with almost everything you said, except about the use of copper pipe coming out of the water heater... you can use CPVC (chlorinated PVC resins), which is specifically designed for hot water use [as you said, pvc is NOT designed or intended for hot water - period].  CPVC pipe is worked similarly to regular pvc pipe, but uses a different fitting cement.  For identification, cpvc pipe is a cream/tan color while pvc is white.

It is true that pvc and cpvc pipe is "semi rigid"; however, if properly secured when installed (like any other pipe, wiring, etc), I do not agree it should be "verbotten"on a boat.

Jim



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Posted: June 27 2011 at 21:05 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Mark,

Yeah, I agree with Jim, you could probably also use CPCV but I think copper is better.  I wouldn't tear out all your old PVC but with Pex available at low prices I wouldn't use any PVC for new work.  PVC is brittle so be prepared for vibration failures.

Pete37



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DMark
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 21:26 | IP Logged Quote DMark

Okay ...

I mis-spoke when I said PVC I meant PB.  Actually, I'm not sure what is connected directly to the heater, I'll check in the next couple days.  But it seems like PEX is well known and I should have expected as much from this crowd.

Further, you are right the problem is  more with the fittings and the crimps.

Thanks for the tips.

M



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Pete37
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 21:26 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Bennett,

I am a mechanical engineer by degree and profession and I know the difference between steel and aluminum.  Aluminum has a much higher reflectivity not possible in steel or stainless steel. 

Plus I tested the housing with a magnet and it was not magnetic.  I can't say that all turbo outlets are made are made of aluminum but this one was.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 27 2011 at 21:27


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DMark
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 21:32 | IP Logged Quote DMark

SUBJECT:  PB banned interestingly...

Just found this on Builders Web Source...

"However, in recent years, new materials have entered the market to challenge copper's dominance. PB, or Polybutylene tubing was popular for its low cost of installation compared to copper. However, excessive failures in the field led to class action lawsuits and the ultimate banning of PB in 1995. Over the years, a better substitute has emerged called CPVC, or chlorinated polyvinyl chloride. B.F. Goodrich (now called just "Goodrich") holds multiple patents on the resins, which it licenses to pipe manufacturers under the name FlowGuard Gold®. (As of June 2001, FlowGuard Gold® is now marketed under the Noveon name). CPVC is typically beige or light grey in color and is now approved by virtually every model building code for use in residential water distribution systems."

I assume that PEX is better yet for general use (not the first 18" out of the heater...).

An FYI.  ...still learning...

M





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DMark
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 21:38 | IP Logged Quote DMark

Fuel Tank Questions: 

Does anyone have a problem with excessive condensation/water in their forward port tank?

Also, can you switch tanks from forward to aft while running, ie. without stopping and shutting off the motors before switching the tank configuration?


M



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Pete37
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 21:47 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Mark,

It is dangerous to use "builder's standards" when buying equipment for your boat.  Boats have different problems including vibration, exposure to oil and the need for tight bends.  What is good for a house is not necessarily good for boats.

But this is a very mundane problem.  Buy the Sea Tech products and you will get suitable pipes and fittings.  And they are compatible with what you've got. They are slightly more expensive but you will only be replacing a few fittings so the cost is negligible.  Other pipes and fittings designed and sold by other manufacturers specifically for marine service would also be suitable.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 27 2011 at 21:54


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DMark
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 21:50 | IP Logged Quote DMark

Thanks Pete ... but marine or not ... a banned product?  Not disagreeing, investigating.

M



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DMark
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 21:57 | IP Logged Quote DMark

A great builders summation of the problems, findings and suggestions for dealing with PB leaks.  Covers the ban which originated in a class action suit in Arizona - 80M people and $750MM.  Basically, fittings designs and crimp materials are problems.  There are several more issues.  While not a marine-oriented piece, worth a read.

One key thing to note - chlorine added to water supplies has been associated with breaking down the PB resulting in weak spots, cracks and holes.  Some of us in Ohio add a bit of chlorine to the well water supplied by the marina.  This may be a unique aspect of our locale and problems...

http://ag.arizona.edu/azwater/awr/nov94/leaks.html

M

 

Edited by DMark on June 27 2011 at 22:01


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Bennett
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 22:04 | IP Logged Quote Bennett

Pete,

I'm also a mechanical engineer.

-Aluminum will get soft (depending on alloy) around 800
deg f to 1000 deg f. It will melt around 1200 deg f (pure
AL) and less with alloys

-Exhaust temps can reach well over 1000 deg f

-The cast steel is likely alloyed with nickel....and depending
on the amount, it may not be magnetic

Bennett



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Pete37
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 22:11 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Mark,

Not sure what you mean by a banned product.  PEX and Sea Tech products certainly are not banned.  And PB pipe is banned only for new construction in the building trade.

As for your existing Connie plumbing system you have several hundred feet of PB pipe and about 120 fittings.  Most of those fittings are probably still the old acetal crimped on type which caused most of the problems.  As far as I know the PB pipe has never caused a problem (except  perhaps when attached directly to a heater).

If you want to get all hot and bothered by a banned product go ahead and tear out all your plumbing and replace it with new stuff.  Figure $20-40K for the job.  Over the years I've replaced about 30 fittings and now experience about one failure per year which I fix in about a half hour with about $10 worth of materials.  To me this is a nuisance not a crisis.

Pete37



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DMark
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 22:33 | IP Logged Quote DMark

Not a crisis Pete, just something to pay attention to.  Particularly interesting is the chlorine issue.  Might cause me to buy a water softener and avoid the chlorine.  Lots of folks in the marina have them...  Thanks as always for the insights.

M


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Pete37
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Posted: June 27 2011 at 22:49 | IP Logged Quote Pete37

Hi Bennett,

Yes, you may be a mechanical engineer and your temperature numbers may be correct (to a point) but you are running blind.  You didn't see the part and therefore can't say what it was made of. 

No mechanical engineer would mistake aluminum for steel or stainless steel. Aluminum has a much higher reflectivity. Cast steel is out because it is also magnetic.  Most stainless steels are also slightly magnetic.

High temperature Al/Si alloys are commonly used in turbochargers for temperatures up to 750F.  I think the problem with your theory is that while some parts of a turbo may reach 1000F that part doesn't.

Pete37



Edited by Pete37 on June 27 2011 at 23:09


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Posted: June 28 2011 at 00:09 | IP Logged Quote DMark

Subject:  Connie Maintenance Schedule

All,

Pete and I were just emailing on the updated Connie Library he's circulating.  I asked if it included a maintenance schedule.  This is a guide I'd love to have.  I particularly noticed it in the early stages of Pete's riser repair discussion (on-going) where the discussion included 8 year interval replacements of risers.

Does anyone have an annual and extended interval maintenance, replacement and repair schedule?

Does anyone have a log or list that could become the basis for such a thing?  Does anyone have an interest in working on one.  I'd certainly really value it.

After the riser discussion I talked to the previous owner of my boat and he's never maintained the risers and he had the boat for 10 years...  I haven't and I've had the boat for 4 years.   I may have a problem in the making.  So I plan to get after it soon.

While there may be some debate about frequencies, the necessity is clear.

Again any interest?

M



Edited by DMark on June 28 2011 at 00:10


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